Matt Matern: Let’s talk about Project 2025, which is the, uh, the project that, uh, a lot of conservative thinkers had come up with as the playbook for the Trump administration if he were elected, and in particular, uh, the focus on the environment or lack of environmental interests that, uh, Trump has.

Paul Bledsoe: Right. So, um, you know, When Trump was first elected, even he said he didn’t think he was going to win. And so it was complete chaos. They were not ready to govern. And it was obvious from the start that that was the case. And it was a actually fairly ineffective administration in implementing What he claimed he was going to do.

He basically governed by press release. He just put out a press release and then often he wouldn’t actually do the things he said he was going to do. This time is going to be real different. If he is elected, he has a cadre of thousands of right wing. Acolytes who have put in place incredibly radical plans to shut down key parts of the U.S. government, like the Department of Education, to give away massive amounts of monies to billionaires, uh, to explode our public debt, to reduce investment in public goods. He is, uh, incredibly dangerous now because he could actually do all these radical proposals that are in the project 2025. And so this is why it’s much more dangerous this time.

The other thing, of course, is that Trump has talked about Weaponizing the criminal justice system, the U. S. Department of Justice to go after all his political enemies. And so we’re in a position where he was not ready to be president the first time. He didn’t have a cadre of serious advisors who were going to implement his right wing radical policies. This time he does. That’s why this is so dangerous.

Matt Matern: I guess I haven’t, uh, I haven’t read as much of the actual, uh, implementing document on project 2025. Is there much, uh, in there about the environment?

Paul Bledsoe: Yeah, so he says that he wants to shut down huge parts of the U. S. government environmental regulatory structure, including large parts of EPA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration that you mentioned, and a whole host of other protections on our Our water, our air, uh, just as an ideological exercise, he’s proposing all those things.

And he has said that he, he, he wants to do that. The thing is, in the past, he didn’t have the cadre of, uh, ideological, uh, driven professionals to do it, because they didn’t think he was going to win either. But this time they’re ready. And, uh, it could be incredible, the changes that America will see in the protections to the environment if Trump is elected.

Matt Matern: Right? One of them would be he has talked about to kind of. Uh, wiping out a bunch of civil servants who’ve been serving in those, those roles and just replacing them with political appointees, which would gut kind of the effectiveness of say the EPA, if they were to wipe out the, the normal staff, which you can’t just fire as a matter of right, when you come in as a new president, because there are civil service protections.

And he’s talking about wiping those off, which Would be incredibly dangerous.

Paul Bledsoe: in the interior department as part of the civil service. Uh, and there was unbelievable esprit de corps and commitment to serious work to factual scientific information underlying major decisions that protect the American people. It’s the core of our government is about 3 million civil servants who do this work every day.
And by the way, that system comes out of some specific events of the late 1800s and early 1900s. What happened was, for example, President Garfield in 1881 was murdered by an office seeker, and they realized in that period of time, they replaced the entire government with every new president with Uh, political appointees and it was a disaster.

It meant the governments were corrupt and and you couldn’t count on the governments. Teddy Roosevelt headed up a commission. It’s 1 of the things that made him famous and made him later become president to put in place a U. S. civil servant service that has been the backbone of a reliable U. S. System of laws and governance for now more than 125 years.

And Trump has said that he specifically wants to undermine that system and put in place a bunch of his cronies who will do anything they want and be accountable to no one. It’s an unbelievable misunderstanding of the history of the United States economy, our public safety protections in our government.

Matt Matern: Well, uh, there was a fascinating article that Michael Lewis wrote in the Washington post, I believe on a civil servant, uh, who worked in the Bureau of mines for, uh, I guess, probably 30 years. And he just dedicated himself to public safety and, and how to make miners jobs safer and, you know, it was brilliantly written and, and it was, it was a I think the, you know, the point was, there are just millions of people doing work like this, trying to help, uh, their fellow Americans be safer, uh, to have our economy work and, and many of those people are, are unsung heroes and it’s very easy to kind of, you know, Bash, the federal government owes big behemoth That no does no good.

But you know, the truth is that there, there are lots of people doing incredible work on our behalf.

Paul Bledsoe: Well, just, you know, ask yourself a question when it comes to the safety of the food your children eat or the air they breathe or the water they drink. You want Jared Kushner in charge and his cronies or you want Scientists who’ve been working on this for 20 and 30 years and devoted their entire lives to it.

That’s, that’s really the choice. I mean, do you want a bunch of Trump cronies to make these decisions? Of course not. That’s, that’s crazy. It doesn’t make any sense for the economy, for our public safety, for our health and wellbeing, but it’s the kind of crazy. Ideology that Trump is pushing because he thinks it’s good grievance, culture, war, politics.

I keep going back to that issue because it’s the point of the spear for Trump. As long as he fears he is. believes he can scare people, uh, and still fear in them, create grievances. That’s his goal. And I think Harris has been brilliant in creating a much more positive, future oriented, young focused vision of where the country’s headed.

That’s why amazingly, uh, just, um, you know, a few weeks after she was nominated in Chicago, There was polling showing that more Americans thought she was a change candidate, even though she’s a sitting vice president than Donald Trump. And I actually thought that was a very important poll because it showed something that her vision of a positive future for America’s people that emphasizes the middle class, that emphasizes average Americans over the billionaire class is attractive and working politically.
And that’s why I think she’s probably going to win. I think she’s going to drive turnout of people who’ve been turned off from the system.

Matt Matern: I thought she had a great August. And, uh, I’m, I’m a little concerned that, uh, the election is as close as it is. And, uh, what, uh, what are your thoughts on, uh, the young people getting out to vote and driving that message and, and people who are not, uh, frequent voters and, and, and the like, uh, and people who are sitting on the fence.

Uh, what is, what’s your, what are your thoughts about, uh, getting them to the polls, energizing them? What can we do, listeners to this show and, and anybody out there to, to help move the ball in, in the direction towards, uh, her victory in November?

Paul Bledsoe: Yeah, it’s a really important question, and I think that people have to recognize that she really is speaking from the heart. She really, I mean, she grew up as a middle class person. She didn’t grow up as the designated heir of a real estate magnet, right? I mean, she grew up as a, most Americans grow up as With, uh, middle class problems.

She understands these problems and she sincerely wants to address these problems. This is who she is. And I think as Americans get to know her more, including in tonight’s debate, they’ll see that this is who she is. She’s not a radical that Trump’s lies are trying to pretend that she is. She’s just an average American, and I think people are tired of the elitism that is at the root root of Trumpism Trump is.

Elitist allies just trying to scare the hell out of people and They lose sight of actually the long term interests of most people in our country. So I think her focus on young people, on the middle class, on job creation, on, uh, uh, reproductive rights, on health care, these are things that most Americans deal with in their everyday lives.
And I think it’s going to win as to what people should do. Listen, this is going to be a close election. That’s just the way it is in American politics now. Every vote counts. Remember, Joe Biden won the key states that won him the presidency in 2020 by, you know, 10, 000 votes. And in several cases, the total number of votes that could have switched and made Donald Trump president Was less than 100, 000 votes in three states.

I mean, it was an incredibly close election in 2020. It’s going to be close this time. Young voters, swing voters, people who care about the future of this country have to recognize they have to get out there and vote. They have to talk to their friends. Create a social network, you know, get involved with the campaign.
This really matters. And I feel that Harris is really a breath of fresh air. You know, Joe Biden us a favor by stepping down because in my view, he was not able to serve a second term. I don’t know why it didn’t happen earlier. I think it should have happened earlier. Uh, I think that’s a completely legitimate point, but as it turned out, Harris is probably the best candidate against Trump for one thing.

Trump has a really hard time dealing with women and he doesn’t interact well with When confronted by women. Nancy Pelosi showed this. Nikki Haley showed this. Other women have showed this in interviews. It doesn’t go too well. He’s got a lot of problems there. I think that’s going to show in the, I think it shows already in the gender gap in the polling, but I think that’s going to show in the debate tonight too.

So when you put it, Though all those issues together, I think she’s the candidate of the future. And I think people should see that she’s sincere and that get behind that idea. And I suspect that just enough young people, just enough swing voters will do that.

Matt Matern: Well, that’s, uh, I think, uh, I think you’re right on that. The question, uh, I was going to ask is what impact does a Uh, Dick Cheney endorsement of, uh, Kamala Harris do, as well as his daughter, uh, and, uh, is that, is that, uh, an earthquake in politics or what?

Paul Bledsoe: You know, I mean, I will admit that I was surprised when I heard that and as somebody who has worked against Dick Cheney for much of my political career. But I think it shows how dangerous. Most normal people who have thought about it and looked at him closely view Trump. There are there are hundreds of major Republican figures who have said they will never vote for Trump.

And in fact, half of Trump’s own cabinet refused to endorse him for president, half. That’s never happened before ever in any political circumstance. So Republicans have made a devil’s bargain with Trump. You know, when I was first in politics, working on Capitol Hill, I worked with really honorable people like Bob Dole and.

Pete Domenici, you know, we disagreed over issues, but I really admired these people. They were genuine public servants. Olympia Snowe, there were many, many others. And even when you disagreed with them, you respected them. They based their arguments on factual information. They didn’t lie all the time. They didn’t try to manipulate everyone all the time. not Trumpism.

Trumpism is, uh, Uh, kind of a cancer on our body politic that has infected the Republican Party that is incredibly dangerous because it’s all about his perceived political self interest. And so it leads to incredible lies about factual information. Let’s take climate change. Trump has repeatedly questioned the underlying science of climate change.

More to the point, he has prevented Our own government from protecting our own people from things like wildfires and, and, and more extreme storms and flooding and heat waves. He will do that on steroids in a second term. So these decisions to lie and to deny factual information have real consequences to the American people and, and to people around the world.

They have consequences to our economy, to our public health and our public safety. And I think that people have had enough. I really think that the change vote is away from Trumpism, which is really just a pack of lies.

Matt Matern: Well, hopefully there’ll be enough people who are Republicans and independents who are conservative leaning, who will say, hey, enough is enough as much as, um, you know, they, they may not be for somebody, uh, on the left, uh, you know, which Kamala Harris is, you know, Further to the left of center. That’s who she represents, the democratic party, but, uh, putting country ahead of party, and I think that’s the, the message here to, I think these swing voters is saying, Hey, uh, Trump is too dangerous, both for the environment, uh, as well as for, um, our democracy and you just, you just can’t take that risk of.

Um, putting our democracy at risk, uh, for his personal benefit.

Paul Bledsoe: I think that’s right, but I also truly believe that she’s more centrist than he is. Far more centrist. I think that her values are classic middle class values. She believes in fairness. She believes that average working people should get a decent wage. She believes that women should be able to protect their own bodies.
She believes that health care should be available to people through Obamacare, which, you She believes that the state should get Medicare and Medicaid aid. She believes in these very basic middle class values. I don’t think she’s far left at all. I think she’s in the center. And one of the

Matt Matern: I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say far left, but I would say, Hey, she’s left of center, which is the Democratic Party is, is, uh, is
Paul Bledsoe: yeah, I would just say that everyone assumes they know where she is politically and I’m not convinced they do. I think that she’s more likely to be a Harry Truman like figure, which is someone who becomes president without Um, uh, a huge amount of scrutiny from the American people, but then applies an independent Uh, set of policies.

I think that her focus on inflation, her focus on on growing 25 million new small businesses with 50, 000 of startup money. That doesn’t sound like liberalism to me. To me, that sounds like a centrist Middle class set of policies. So we may differ about what’s left and what’s right. And obviously many Democrats are to the left.

I just think her vision is actually a little more unifying and a little more centrist than people think.

Matt Matern: no, I, I, I agree with you that, uh, her, her, uh, speech at the convention was a more centrist message. And I think that that’s a winning one. I think it’s a winning one for the Democratic Party. And I, I welcome. The Democratic Party kind of moving to the center, because quite frankly, that is going to be a stronger thing for the country and and for the environment.

Because, uh, to me, the environment is the most important issue and you’ve got to capture the center of the country in order to push those policies effectively.
Paul Bledsoe: That’s so right, Matt. And

Matt Matern: Party, Is seen as too left wing and extremist and communist and, you know, whatever, you know, the Republicans want to paint them as then, then the policies of environmental, um, you know, protection.

Kind of get tarred with that brush.

Paul Bledsoe: that’s right. And that’s why I think her economic appeal on these energy and climate issues is so important. We should talk about economics first, about public safety second, and about climate change third, because that’s how people really look at these issues. How much does it cost for me to heat my home or my apartment, to get to work, and Am I safe?

Do I have clean air? Is it too hot outside to play or to work? You know, are the wildfires getting so bad that the air quality is being undermined? Or can I afford homeowner’s insurance because flooding has gotten so bad that homeowner insurance is unavailable in much of the country? These are kitchen table issues.

And this is why I’m saying that energy and climate is increasingly, in my view, a kitchen table, economic and public safety issue. If she can sell it that way, Matt, I think you’re 100 percent right. I think she can win.

Matt Matern: Well, uh, I, I think that, uh, she can, uh, whether she will is, is another story, but I, I think she’s headed in the right direction on that. Uh, as trial lawyers, uh, we. Are sometimes there’s school of thought out there to appeal to people’s reptilian brains, which is kind of essentially what you were describing, which is what’s in it for me.

And why is this important to me as a voter? And certainly voters around the country in Florida. I understand. It’s very difficult to get insurance these days because
Paul Bledsoe: impossible to get

Matt Matern: climate change issues.

Paul Bledsoe: That’s right. You know, the one thing we haven’t talked about is her choice of vice president. You know, I think Tim Walz is another brush of fresh air. I mean, this guy, the fact that she chose him. Says to me that she really does believe in centrism in the middle class.

I mean, this guy is a classic American middle class story. And what did Donald Trump do? He doubled down on a far right conspiracy theorist who constantly indulges in grievance based culture war politics based on lies, who has been supported by the trillionaires in the high tech. Uh, um, Silicon Valley, uh, and, and who have funded his campaigns in JD Vance.

I think that contrast should really show something about Kamel Harris’s judgment. You know, one is a, is is a coach and a teacher, Tim Walls and the other. is a venture capitalist who made a fortune really quick by trading on ties from Yale law school, And then getting in close to Peter Thiel and other right wing players in the tech industry.

And so ask yourself, Who’s most likely to understand what’s really happening to? To the American people. Now, I know that J. D. Vance wrote a book and he claims that he came from a hardscrabble background and I don’t, I don’t dispute that at all. I know that he was, he served in the military, so did Tim Walz.

I think, I respect both those things, but what has he done as an adult? As an adult, all he’s done is Pursue opportunism for his self interest among the rich and and not represented middle class values. So I think that’s a telling decision and contrast.

Matt Matern: no, I think that the Tim Walz decision is a good one. And, and he, he came from a swing district. He, he, uh, helped swing that district, uh, and vote, uh, Democratic after a hundred years, essentially in Republican control, which, which tells you a lot about the guy and, and he’s, uh, I think he’s governed in a way that probably is, is the way forward for the Democrats is, uh, from a, a centrist perspective for, from an area that you would try to get votes from both sides and, and win an election with the Democrats.

With, uh, with kind of a centrist message, but, uh, maybe, maybe in somewhat of a, an FDR esque type way where he, he certainly was socially very active, but he was also getting the middle of the country, uh, voting for him.

Paul Bledsoe: yeah, I think, you know, he, he, the interesting thing about walls is he, he recognizes that these cultural issues are important. He’s, you know, he did serve in the military for 24 years. He, you know, he’s a hunter. He, you know, he wears the, you know, the baseball cap and the hunting, you know, camouflage. And I mean, that’s who he really is.

He’s a coach. I mean, he, he, he culturally. is, uh, I think, uh, comfortable for a lot of Americans. And I don’t think that was an accident. I think Harris recognizes those issues are important to many people. And I think it was, uh, I think it was a master stroke and it could turn decisive in a very close election.

Usually vice presidents don’t matter, but I think in a very close election, I think he’s going to have a great debate against, uh, JD Vance himself, Tim Walz. And I think Tim Walz is a much more attractive figure and much more like most Americans than J. D. Vance,

Matt Matern: Yeah, hopefully, uh, Wallace will be very saleable in his, you know, Wisconsin, Michigan, and, uh, and in Pennsylvania. Yeah.

Paul Bledsoe: that’s right. And it is worth noting that we now have North Carolina is in play. We, you know, Georgia is in play, Arizona is in play, Nevada. There are a lot of states here, and, um, I feel that it’s pretty amazing the comeback she has made from where Biden had us. Two months ago, because the polling two months ago for Joe Biden, after that debate.

Was really, really bad, and I think she deserves tremendous credit to get us to here. The key is that we need to get behind her to put ourselves over the top for the future of the country. That, you know, politics is a symbiotic thing. There’s a relationship between leaders. They have to help one another.

They have to be there for each other. I think Trump’s only concerned about himself. I think Harris and, and Walz are genuinely concerned about the future of the country.
Matt Matern: Well, let me ask you about, uh, Florida and Texas. I’ve heard that the polling has tightened up in those states to where may, might even be close to within the margin of error.

Paul Bledsoe: And in Ohio, Eddie Vance’s Ohio, where I’m, where I grew up. Um, and I grew up in Pennsylvania and Ohio. I think it’s unlikely that those states are going to be in play. I think that the states to me that are obviously Pennsylvania is crucial. This is why I think the gas issue is crucial. You’ll notice that, um, Harris did her debate prep in Pittsburgh.

She holed up in Pittsburgh for the last week and did events for All week long in Pennsylvania. Um, I also think that Georgia has shown an ability to turn out the vote. Um, people like Stacey Abrams in Georgia. So, and now we have a new state like a big new state like North Carolina in play. I think, um, I think Trump’s having to play some defense in some places.

To your point, Matt, they didn’t think they were going to have to. And, uh, I saw that Trump has just given up on New Hampshire, for example, that used to be a swing state. So I think that things are trending well, but we’ve got to work with. This centrist democratic ticket and support it for our future. It’s, it’s, it’s an incredibly important election.

Ironically, it’s even more important than 2016 because now Trump does have this cadre of ideologically driven. Uh, you know, followers who are going to put in place all these crazy policies and that will really devastate our country and and undermine our, our environmental protection. So it couldn’t be more important.

Matt Matern: right? Uh, yeah. When 2016 rolled around, Trump was really fumbling his way into the office. I had no idea what he was doing, uh, really for a couple of years. Um, and, and this time around he, he. understands kind of the levers of power a lot more than he did, um, in 2016. So it makes him a lot more dangerous than he was.

Paul Bledsoe: I think so. Unfortunately. So it’s incredibly whether it’s energy and providing cheap, clean energy or climate protection and safe to public safety. Or whether it’s our, you know, reproductive health or growing the middle class or having fairness and health care availability, growing small businesses, all these issues, I think, favor the Democrats and Harris walls.

And I really think people need to understand that this is the most important election of my lifetime. This is the 1 that will really. Determine our way forward for quite some time. And we haven’t even talked about the international implications of having Trump and, you know, he’s going to give away half of Ukraine, you know, on day one to Vladimir Putin.

I don’t know why he’s got such a bro crush on every dictator around the world, but it’s an incredibly dangerous thing that he just. You know, once to pacify every dictator by, you know, giving them, you know, we’re, you know, the run up to World War Two, like pacifist, um, options. I just think he’s a very, very dangerous figure.

Matt Matern: literally saying that he would tell Greenlight Putin to invade some of our NATO allies if they didn’t pay up their 2 percent that they would, you know, like, that’s the most insane thing ever or to destroy NATO. I mean, the most effective alliance for keeping the peace in Europe for 75 years. It’s the danger is just Extraordinarily high.

And he is either an idiot or a pawn of…

Paul Bledsoe: That’s right. And the other thing is you just see in his rambling Fidel Castro, like three hour speeches that he’s increasingly unhinged. He’s talking about topics. No one knows what he’s talking about. He’s talking about sharks and bacon prices crippling. And I mean, just crazy stuff. This is why Tim Wal, Paul says he’s now weird.

I mean, let’s be honest. I mean, who is the person who you worry about their age and temperament in the presidency? Trump with the crazy stuff he says all the time. Or Harris with a new centrist vision of the country. I, I have to say, I think that Trump tonight in the debate will just show his colors again.

And I think the American people at the end of the day need to make the right choice. And I hope they, I believe they will.

Matt Matern: well, I do too. And, uh, yeah, Trump got away with a C minus performance in the last debate. Uh, you know, and thinking that he looked good. Uh, and, uh, it was only because Joe Biden was clocking in at a D minus that, uh, that. Look decent, but, uh, I think when faced with somebody who actually will bring a fastball to the debate, uh, I think Trump is going to strike out a bit more today.

Paul Bledsoe: I think the contrast will be really clear about who cares about the country and average Americans and who’s just a self interested politician willing to say anything. I mean, Trump will just say anything to get attention and to scare people. It’s mind boggling that people ignore The trail of thousands of lies that he tells on a routine basis, increasingly bizarre lies.

And I just don’t think, I think in the long run, Americans have had enough of Trump.

Matt Matern: Well, uh, I think so too. Well, Paul, it’s been great having you on the show and, uh, appreciate your time and your insights. Uh, we certainly look forward to, you know, seeing how this all plays out in November and hopefully, uh, Harris will. Uh, when this one, because it is such an important election for the environment and for so many issues facing us and internationally, as you said, there, there’s a ton of issues in nationally that there are extraordinarily important that, that, uh, she would bring great leadership to, as opposed to Trump, who, uh, it’s going to give away the store to Putin.

Paul Bledsoe: Thank you, Matt. It’s my pleasure. And, uh, hopefully we can have a, a more upbeat, uh, talk after, uh, November 5th.

Matt Matern: sounds good.