Music you’re listening to a climate change this is Matt Matern, your host, I’ve got Auden Chandler on the program today. Auden has got quite a background, done a lot of interesting things, wrote a book Getting green done back in 2009 and now has a new book out terrible beauty, reckoning with climate complicity and rediscovering our soul. He’s also a Senior VP at Aspen one and has worked on a ton of different projects. I’m really excited to talk to him about all the work that he’s doing, in particular his book. So welcome to the program.

Good to be here. Matt, thanks for having me.

Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your journey and kind of what brought you to the environmental movement and what’s kind of animating you right now.

Yeah. So I grew up in New Jersey. Was born in 1970 and students of environmental history will know that there were no major environmental laws in the US until 1970 72 that’s when the clean air and clean water acts were passed. So I’d visit my grandparents in North Dakota, which was pristine and beautiful, and I have left this cesspool. I mean, New Jersey in the 70s and 80s was a disaster area. So I grew up thinking, wow, what did we do?

And how do we fix this, and how do we make the world more like North Dakota? And of course, those laws, once they kicked in, they actually made New Jersey and the rest of the country a much better place. But I was growing up in that period when environmental regulation hadn’t been implemented, so I think that was the root of my environmentalism. And then I always kind of tacked toward that in college and after college, and slowly figured out what it meant. You know it now means working on climate, but it wasn’t clear what that meant when I was younger.

So tell us a kind of on your book, terrible beauty, reckoning with climate complicity and rediscovering our soul. What are you getting at there? What’s this climate complicity you’re talking about? Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, continuing the arc of my career, I got into the corporate sustainability movement, which I was also in, sort of on the ground floor of that, that the notion was in the early 90s, that business was the entity that could actually be the agent to solve climate change, because it’s cheaper to save energy than it is to make it. There was all this, you know, retrofitting business could do at a profit. And so business would lead on the climate solution.

In fact, it would lead the way even for government, and wouldn’t need government regulation. And I did this work for a long time, and it’s really, it’s amazing work. You know that the notion of changing light bulbs, reducing your energy use 50% saving money, and then, because the bulbs are more efficient, reducing your air conditioning Bill, you know?

Like, that’s an example of the stories we were telling, but we were also doing. And the problem with that whole thesis was that it was great stuff and it was real, but it wasn’t enough. And with climate change, you need global, systemic change. So the concept of complicity popped into my head a few years ago as I was riding my bike, and basically I thought, what would the fossil fuel industry want corporations to do, to appear to look like they were being green, but to not get in the way of the fossil fuel industry’s ability to monetize proven reserves of carbon.

And the answer was, everything I’d been doing and and this is the kicker, everything the environmental movement, the modern environmental movement, is doing, which is to focus on individual actions and tokenism, and not broad power wielding, and the kind of power and change that is necessary is the stuff that I saw as a kid in the form of a clean air and clean water act, but America sort of abandoned that kind of thinking. It went away from regulation and toward a sort of free market theology.

So certainly, I’ve heard from a number of people that the big corporations kind of sold America on the idea that we as individuals bore responsibility, kind of for environmental problems, ergo the Native American guy and the famous commercials in the 70s where trash is being thrown out the window and the Native American guy starts crying at how bad it is.

And I definitely see that. Have we woken up to the fact that certainly some in the environmental movement are talking about systemic change, and the change that we’re going to have to move away from, say, internal combustion engines and to clean powered cars. What other types of change on a systemic level. Do you think is most important for us to make?

Well, first are people waking up to this. There are more voices saying, this has got to be more than individual action. Very few voices are saying, You know what, you’re not responsible for. The fossil fuel economy you live in, and this is an important point of mine, which is that American citizens, a global citizen, said, We want the services provided by energy, so hot showers, cold soda, transportation, mobility, a warm house. We want that provided affordably.

But we never said, Hey, can you also do that in a way that will destroy civilization eventually. We used fossil fuels. They were amazing. They brought people out of poverty. They helped create an agricultural revolution. Refrigeration addressed massive health issues. But we learned in the 50s through the 70s that the CO2 emissions from fossil fuels were damaging, and we should have taken the opportunity there to move off it, so people are not quite there yet. If I say, hey, we need big change, often I hear, yeah, but what about my house or what about your carbon footprint?

So the things that to answer your question, the things we need to do is we need, broadly this prescription is you need to decarbonize the powers the electric power sector. And that’s actually on its way new solar and new wind is cheaper energy. Our utility is now actually just hit 90% renewables.

So this is happening. So you do that, so you have carbon free power, and then you use that electricity for transportation, EVs, electric busses, electric trucks, and then also to heat buildings using heat pumps. So that’s the way you get to a broadly carbon free society. You can also use that electricity in industry, like cement and steel, but it’s harder to do that.

So that’s the big picture. And then the question that I ask is, okay, well, how do we get there? We don’t get there by recycling plastic bottles that never get recycled. We get there through a movement of people that creates political will that drives policy, and the policies don’t need to be something that is fearful to the right or to libertarians. They can be very, very reasonable, bipartisan policies.

Well, what happened, in your opinion? On you know, early November, the election, the American public voted, not overwhelmingly, but certainly Trump won more of the votes than Harris did, and Trump ran a campaign that was pretty much devoid of any environmental promises. How is it that Harris could lose against somebody who has almost zero environmental credibility?

You know, I think if you look closely at American lives, you see that our governments, whether it was left or right, over the last 50 years or more, since World War II, we’ve failed people. And a lot of people are really struggling. They are hurting. They’re having trouble paying rent, the grocery bills are insane. They have health care issues.

And so we have this, this failure of government and a failure in our economy. Think about these broad issues of health care, of housing, of climate, of education, and so you can’t care about meaning or about climate or environment if you can’t feed your kids. And I think, honestly, that this Trump election was a revolt against the failure of governance in America.

And I just, I think it’s part of this churn we’re going to have to go through to kind of reinvent what we hope government to do. And fundamentally, government should be giving people, helping people with the basics, so that they can live meaningful lives and be productive citizens. We haven’t been doing that.

I guess I push back on that and say, hey, the Biden economy is not a terrible one in the respect that inflation is down in the twos, stock markets at record highs, unemployment is pretty low, around 4% kind of you see articles in The Economist and other economic papers. Wonders that, hey, our economy is the envy of the world in a lot of ways.

Yet people feel that things aren’t going well. I tend to think it’s a little bit oversold, that it’s so terrible. I recognize that inflation was bad there for a couple years, but it has been somewhat tamed. You know, you wonder if the economic message was just sold better on the Republican side than on the Democratic side.

Yeah, look, there was a lot going on in this election, and part of it was about information. And I think what you’re pointing out is the Trump campaign said things are terrible, and the Biden campaign was ineffective at saying, well, they’re not that terrible. At the same time, though, that quote, good economy left a lot of people behind.

I was listening to a guy named Philip Agnew on the radio. He’s a African American advocate, and he said, You talk about the black community turning away from the Democrats, and he said the warning to the black community is it’s going to be the apocalypse if you if you vote for Trump, and they say, we’ve been in the Apocalypse, and things aren’t getting better. And I think there is a lot of truth to the economy you described was working for some people, and it hasn’t under left or right administrations worked for a lot of people.

Right after the election, I went to a library in Delta Colorado. Delta’s very rural and not particularly wealthy, western Colorado, and as I was walking in to the library, I passed a grandmother who was clearly down on her luck, and her granddaughter who had a horrible cough, and I opened the door for them, and they couldn’t have been sweeter and more polite, but they were hurting, and in the in the parking lot, there were a lot of rough looking dudes who were either struggling from addiction or had severe health issues. None of them were at all threatening.

And I talked to some of them, and I had this sense of abandonment. You know, these weren’t even the people who they probably didn’t even vote, but I felt that I had missed something in my sense of what public policy ought to do, these people were hurting, and I think that’s what came out more broadly in this election.

Yeah, certainly there’s, there’s a lot of different themes there, and it’s hard to to say it was any one thing that went wrong, but I did feel like the Biden administration, the IRA was a very good step in the direction of good environmental policy. It’s not perfect, but it puts some wind in the sails of alternative energy sources that are low carbon or zero carbon.

What are your thoughts there? What should the States be doing to build on it first. I don’t expect Trump to do much, if anything, but put us in reverse. But was the IRA enough? And if not, what do we do now?

So I think the IRA was amazing. I think it was probably the most important piece of climate legislation in history. As you know, it was primarily carrots, it was incentive based, it was tax rebates, but it started driving investment in clean energy, and was super impressive. It didn’t go very fast, you know, like, there’s still a lot of implementation needing to be done around it, and that’s been one of the problems in our society, which is, it’s hard to do stuff. It’s hard to do train projects.

You know, it’s high speed rail we’ve been trying to do for 15 years. It’s hard to do infrastructure, in part because of the environmental left that has a lot of power in stopping projects. Okay, so was it enough? You know, in a perfect world, we would have had IRA, which is a carrot, and then we would have had some kind of carbon price be on pollution policy, so that there was an a market incentive to not pollute, which, again, can be done in a way that doesn’t hurt the poor.

Moving forward here, I think states need to say, Okay, we’re going to buy into the rights kind of sense of states rights and Federalists thinking and proceed. Jay Inslee in Washington is a leader on this and a model for having state climate policy. They passed a version of a carbon tax. T

hey fought off an assault on some of these policies in the last election, Colorado is a leader, California is a leader. New York is a leader. And it is up to the States to pursue these solutions, because I do think Trump’s going to try to roll back chunks of the IRA, and that’ll be tough, right?

I guess one of the things. Things that I’m most concerned about is the methane and the Trump will, you know, kind of gut the limits on methane emissions at the for the oil producers. What are your thoughts on that? And you know, can the states really make a difference there? Certainly Colorado call and California have a substantial oil economy, though they’re both probably trimming their sales in that area.

Yeah. I mean, look, methane is this incredible problem. It’s a super potent greenhouse gas, 84 times more potent than CO two. I’ve actually spent a large chunk of my career working on methane in partnership with oil and gas and coal guys. So having the EPA regs get lessened or weakened is a problem, because if we really cared about climate change, we would pass a bounty on methane and we’d start paying people to flare it, which is destroying it.

That’s a huge I mean, you’ve picked up on sort of these little things that that Americans may not be paying attention to, that have huge consequences on climate again, I think the role of the states is is to lead and model for others. Colorado passed the most rigorous rules on methane leakage in the country. Wyoming then adopted the first iteration of those, and we’re actually showing how you can have some level of economic value in capturing methane.

I’m involved in a project at an old coal mine where we’re flaring old methane that you can’t use for anything, and then selling those carbon credits into the California cap and trade market. So this gets back to, yeah, it’s going to be up to the states, but this topic is extremely concerning to people in the climate world.

Well, certainly the fact that Wyoming has bought into methane regulation is a good thing, because it’s certainly a bright red state. How is it that you got them to to buy into it? Or, why did they buy into that?

That’s a great question. You know, it’s Wyoming’s an interesting place because they’ve got, you know, the joke about what’s a what’s an airport wind sock in Wyoming, it’s an anvil on a chain drive across the state, you’re always yanking on the steering wheel.

So they’ve got this incredible wind resource, and they’re they’re politically against it, but it’s this potential giant economic driver. Some of the regs on methane are just good business. In some cases, you’re looking for leaks in the thing you’re selling. You know, you’re looking for leaks in the pipeline, so some of it makes sense, and then flaring doesn’t always make sense, but it’s a way to turn that methane into a less potent greenhouse gas.

Well, I would imagine your average person from Wyoming or other red states out in the less populated areas are kind of leaning towards being environmentalists. They live out in areas that are wild and beautiful, and they’re that, you know, you’d think that those folks would kind of be leaning in towards being environmentalists to begin with. What do you see in that respect?

I think so. I think they are environmentalists. I mean, ranchers and people who are out in the middle of nowhere, they are environmentalists. I think there’s just a, you know, it’s difficult when an economy has run on gas for so long, or coal, and you say, we need to change that.

People again, this comes down to people need jobs. And I also think climates have been it has been a tricky issue where it’s like, Come on, man, I’m going to keep gas. Is relatively clean. I’m going to keep using gas. It’s hard for people to make that sea change in their thinking around how we power our economy.

Well, say, for instance, a state like Utah that has a lot of wind potential. Are they taking advantage of it? It seems that’s kind of a no brainer, that somebody can make a ton of money producing a lot of wind power, right?

Yeah. I mean, I think the wind industry has been an interesting problem. It’s actually suffered since COVID Because it had all kinds of supply chain issues. But you are seeing these interesting conservative plays on clean energy, which is an example, would be in Colorado, ranchers who are like, I want a turbine on my land because I can continue to Ranch, but I can make revenue from that wind.

There’s a hopeful future for all of us. And again, you know, it’s not controversial to produce energy using the cheapest way to do it. It’s now cheaper to use solar and wind, so utilities are moving in that direction, and people can make money on this stuff. So there’s a way forward. It’s just a fraught Time

To me that’s one of the most destructive parts about the Trump messaging is that he seems ideologically opposed. Goes to renewable energy. It’s like he wants to kill it, which, you know, just like that doesn’t make any sense, because it’s actually cheaper than than the alternative coal or natural gas. So, you know, do you think Musk is able to turn him around a bit on that because of Musk’s own personal vested interests in his fortune being tied to EVs, this is a fascinating question you’re asking, because look at Trump’s cabinet.

Musk obviously understands climate change, right, and he’s long been concerned and working on it. RFK Jr has been one of the leading advocates for action on climate for 15 years. So yes, those guys have become a little odd, but you now have within this organization, these people with the core sense of we gotta be working on this. So it’s gonna be interesting to see how this plays out. Your point on Trump being ideologically against essentially climate action, renewable energy.

This is something that that goes back to really post cold war. And the historian, the Harvard historian, Naomi Oreskes, and her writing partner Eric Conway have pointed out that a lot of the resistance to climate action was sort of resistance to centralized government that came from anti communism. And so when you plumb the depths of well, why do people think this way?

It’s often deeper than you think and more ideological versus scientific. You know, usually this is never when someone’s like, I don’t believe the science is never about the science. It’s always about ideology.

Well, that’s where the pitch, I think could be more effective for the environmentalists, is, hey, this is taking you off the grid. If you have your own solar panels, if you have your own wind you no longer dependent upon big utilities or big government. You are truly freer than than ever. And doesn’t seem like that has sold particularly well or hasn’t been marketed particularly well by the environmental movement. Yeah.

I mean, one of the problems is that, ultimately, we’re not trying to get everyone to get off the grid. We’re trying to get the grid to be renewable, because the grid helps. You know, if you have solar on your roof, you’re typically connected to the grid. I think that in that kind of very conservative world, you see people who have their roofs covered with solar panels. I know a guy in my town like this, and it’s because it makes sense economically and it does provide a measure of independence.

So again, there’s this overlap, but you’re right, the messaging, I mean, why wouldn’t a good conservative message be, hey, we need new power on the utility grid. Should we get the cheapest kind, or should we get the more expensive kind? Let’s use the cheapest kind. That’s renewables. Yeah. Well,

of course, there’s a certain degree of corruption in this, and that the utilities and the fossil fuel companies have put a ton of money into the hands of certain politicians and get them to vote their interests versus the interest of the people. I would say one hopeful sign is I heard there was something like 1819, Republican congress people who were saying they would not vote to kill the IRA, or at least portions thereof.

I don’t know if any of them are from Colorado or the IRA. And the infrastructure bill are funding projects in conservative states. You know, a lot of these red states have big projects that are benefiting from this legislation. So you’re right. That is likely it’s going to be hard to dismantle those things.

So where do you see this going? What are your prognostications, but also pointers to the listeners out there of things they could be doing, asking their government to do, asking, you know, community leaders to do?

Yeah, so I think people typically respond to say a threat like climate change, and they say, okay, what can I do? And that i is typically my car, my house, my roof, can I ride the bus? Can I recycle and so forth? I submit that those are all nice and good things to do, but they’re not climate solutions. There are climate solutions people can be involved with, but those all revolve around your role as a citizen in society. So that means talking to elected officials and saying you care.

It means going to town council meetings. It means writing letters to the editor. It means giving money to groups working on this it means being part of a movement that is working on this issue. I want to tell you a quick story about in our district. Correct. So we’re in this congressional district three in Colorado. We used to be represented by a guy named Scott Tipton, and then more the famous Lauren Bobert was a representative, and she’s now left.

So now we have a different guy named Jeff heard but when Tipton was in he was very conservative. I went from here an hour and a half drive to his office with a team from my company, and we said, we care about climate change. We’re in the ski business.

Why don’t you care about it? And he said, tell me how many people you think came into my office in the last year and said they cared about climate change? And I was like, zero, you know? And that’s true. And so why do we expect our elected representatives to care about climate when no one’s asking them for it?

So this is informative. You need a movement, and the movement can’t be Oh, I signed this thing online that got sent to my senator. You have to go to your senator. They have to hear you. And that’s just one small example of what I call wielding power. You know, everyone has an opportunity to drive change in their own way.

Think about building codes in towns. Most towns have building codes that are very outdated, and when you update them, you save energy and you make buildings safer and more affordable for people once they’re operating them. So I say, be a citizen. That’s the way to drive change. Well, it’s

interesting. I had somebody on the program before the election from the environmental voter project, Nathaniel Stinnett, and what he was saying was that environmental voters, people who say the environment is their number one issue. Vote less than other voters.

So it’s fascinating that people who, who would be environmentalists, are voting less frequently than other voters. I don’t know if they’re just too interested in in recycling and regenerative farming to get off their you know, farms to go put in a vote or what.

So I did a little calling with them and donated a little bit to them, because I felt like, Oh, that’s a that’s a worthy project, and their goal is to keep engaged from election to election, even in the small elections, the local elections, and make the voices known that, hey, climate’s an issue, and we’re going to push it across every office holder in the state and up to the national politics, right?

Yeah, and it’s an issue that affects everyone, and more and more communities are experiencing shocks that make their lives harder. My town almost burned down in 2018 then we had a mudslide where the fire had been another fire in Glenwood Canyon. And those disruptions keep people from living happy lives when you’re you’re you’re constantly battling the next threat to your survival, you’re not really thriving and becoming a better society.

Well, love to hear more about what work you’re planning to do. I think the things that you talked about are very common sense and being engaged more as a citizen is is common sense stuff, and it kind of we can all work on that. It’s all within our grasp.

So if there are any final thoughts you want to give to the audience, also shout out to your book, terrible beauty, reckoning with climate complicity and rediscovering our soul. Please. Everybody, go out there and check out that book. And, you know, check out what Auden is doing on many different fronts.

You know, in conclusion, I’d say my book sort of gets at the question of, when we ask people what they care about, they say, you know, my kids, my family, my community, I love the natural world, I love the place I live. And then we say, well, what are you doing to protect that against the threat to all of it, which is climate change, and people’s responses to your point, I don’t even vote.

You know where I recycle some stuff. Well, there’s this opportunity to be part of what America was meant to be, which is a citizen. And it’s hard work to be a citizen. It takes effort, it’s controversial. You have to get out of bed, you have to show up, you have to talk to other people, and when you start doing that, it’s actually pretty gratifying. So my book gets at that, but a lot of other practical solutions that end up being big scale, not token.

So is that the rediscovering our soul part of the book?

There you go. Yep.

Okay, well, here’s to rediscovering our soul and connecting with our democracy and our neighbors and friends and our community and changing our environment all the same time, it’s work worth doing absolutely so thank you, Auden for being on the program. Everybody check out Auden’s book and website and all that. That great stuff that you’re doing, and I applaud the work that you’re doing out there in Colorado, and keep doing it.

Matt, thanks for having me on and for your show and for your good, thoughtful questions. I appreciate it.