You’re listening to A Climate Change, this is your host, Matt Matern. I’ve got Garrett Nilsen on the program today. Garrett is the Deputy Director Department of Energy for solar technologies, or solar energy technologies department, great to have you on the program. We talked once about, I don’t know, a year to two years ago, you know. So it was a great conversation. And love to get an update on what’s been happening. And thanks and welcome to the program.

Yeah, it’s great to be back, Matt. Always lots going on. Exciting times in solar is always, yeah, well, tell us a little bit about your background and what brought you to this, you know, working in the environmental space as a young person.

So it’s funny, working in solar energy actually goes all the way back to when I was at Cub Scout, ultimately, when it all kind of came together after college, where I was sitting in the dentist office, of all places, and I read an article in National Geographic that talked about covering a certain percentage of America’s urban and suburban rooftops in solar and if we could do that, we could power a very appreciable amount of America’s electricity needs.

And that’s where it all sort of came together. Took a little while longer to actually get into the solar space and going back to grad school and things like that. But then, shortly after the grad school, about 13 years ago, now, I was lucky enough to land a job at the Department of Energy, and still here and still doing the work.

So tell us a little bit about your background in the Department of Energy, and what’s the nature of your position and and how many people are in your department, and all of that.

So I’m the Deputy Director of the Solar Energy Technologies Office. We sit in the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy. And so we are what’s called an Applied Research Office. So we are given money by Congress to fund research development, in some cases demonstration programs to move up the maturity level of different technologies related to solar energy and also reduce barriers to solar energy as well.

So a preponderance of our work and funding goes to exploring new kinds of solar cells, how solar cells and systems themselves degrade over time, concentrating solar thermal technologies, Grid technologies, helping with the commercialization of promising technologies that aren’t yet ready for private sector funding.

Our offices annual budget in fiscal year 24 was $318 million and we have just over 100 people in the office. So it’s a big place with lots of exciting work going on. It’s a fun place to be, and we get to work on a lot of different exciting and interesting topics for the country.

Tell us what progress has been made since you’ve been at the DOE on getting solar to be cost affordable for the utility industry, as well as rooftop solar.

So I was lucky enough to join right when the doe was launching what was called the SunShot Initiative. So through years of work in terms of funding research, again, reducing barriers and things of that nature. And of course, with some help of the massive scale of manufacturing that’s taking place across the globe, we saw the cost of solar at the utility scale drop from many multiple dollars a lot, down to in the neighborhood of about $1 a while, where we sit today.

And so dollar while was identified as that was the amount where we saw that it was price comparative with the other assets that are on the grid, such as coal, natural gas and nuclear. And so, you know, with that huge drop in cost, that’s also led to a corresponding increase in deployment. So when I first joined now, we were in the neighborhood of probably a 10th of a percent of America’s electricity was coming from solar, maybe a little bit more, as of today, through August of 2024 over that 12 month period, solar provided 6.5% of America’s electricity needs.

And so that’s a really exciting growth of, you know, almost like 65 60x from where we were previously, and so now, you know, solar really is a large and growing asset in the US, and continuing to be a preponderance of of new assets installed.

What’s a growth curve look like if we continue growing solar out the way we’ve been growing it for the last, say, 10 years. Where is it expected to be in 10 years from now?

Well, so we’re growing rapidly. I forget the exact number of where we might be in 10 years, but you know, we’ve done a lot of research over the last few years on what is the installation rate that we need to have in order to be or they hit at least Biden administration decarbonization goals.

So in 2023 we were looking in the neighborhood of 35 to 40 gigawatts. So that puts us kind of on a good curve. Of course, there are continuing challenges that are going to need to be overcome as SOAR is still a nascent technology compared to the more established fossil assets and nuclear assets, but the growth curve is there, and we’re actually getting close and being on the curve that we need to decarbonize the economy.

But of course, there are always headwinds and always something interesting happening. The solar space, we try not to take any of it for granted, and continue to think about how we drive down barriers. In that respect, we’ve heard a lot about that China is producing a lot of the solar cells.

What are we doing? And what is the IRA done to bring back, or to create some more solar manufacturing in the US, and also to create a technological edge such that our solar technology is cheaper and more cost effective than our competitors.

Yeah, so there’s a couple items to unpack there. So, you know, maybe first to kind of set the context for how much you know China can potentially control this industry. You know, China has hundreds of gigawatts of capacity along each of these elements of the supply chain.

And so the inflation Reduction Act has really been focused on providing incentives to allow American companies to be competitive along each part of the supply chain. And so we’ve seen a huge growth in manufacturing since the inflation Reduction Act passed, particularly in module assembly, which is one of the quicker to set up portion of the supply chain, where we’re kind of in the neighborhood of, you know, 10s of gigawatts of module assembly taking place in the US.

And we’re almost at the point where we’re installing as much as we’re making here, which is a great, great development, and has been a huge growth since since before the IRA passed. Now there are still elements further upstream where we’re looking to develop more capacity. So cells have not quite come online as quickly as we as we’d expected. Same can be said for ingots and wafers.

So there is still certainly some work to be done to have a an entire domestic manufacturing supply chain, but we are seeing a lot of growth in the crystal and silicon space. I would do have to say that where America does lead the world, and where we lead both manufacturing capacity and technologies in cadmium telluride, nor obviously home to the preeminent cadmium telluride module company in the world for solar. And so first solar is investing a great deal in terms of domestic manufacturing.

They make up about 20% of our market, give or take, and really kind of a big driver in the utility space as well. And so our office, we’re really trying to fund research at labs and universities to continue to push the ball forward on silicon solar, and trying to kind of, you know, maintain or take that technical advantage there, while also trying to make sure that we’re, for sure, keeping our advantages in the academy and Telluride space.

And we’re also looking even into the future, in a world where potentially tandem devices, where you have two different materials set stacked on top of each other to reach higher efficiencies, which we kind of see as one of the big future, potential futures for solar energy, something where America can lead. And really kind of, you know, push and try to dominate that technology space.

So in terms of, Telluride, tell us a little bit about that technology and why it’s maybe superior.

Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s superior to silicon, but it is a different kind of material set, and so it is what’s called a direct band gap device, while silicon solar cells are what are called indirect band gap devices. So that’s a siting space for us again, because we have the manufacturing capacity here. Now, we obviously need to make sure that we maintain supply chains for cadmium and tellurium. You know, some of those are byproducts of copper mining and things like that.

So they’re not mine directly. So we need to be conscious about that we’re getting enough material to be able to manufacture this out and large. And that leads to, you know, more generation, poor amount of labor it takes to put something on a on a rack and put it out in the field. And so it has some advantages, um, you know, silicon has its own advantages as well, just given the massive supply chains that are behind it and the cost curve that it is on as well. So I’d be reticent to say one is definitively better than the other. They both have kind of their own unique characteristics that allow them to provide critical roles in different parts of the solar energy market.

So in terms of one of the challenges that the US seems to face, and I guess the entire world seems to face, is the ever increasing need for power in particular things like AI and crypto that are sucking up a lot of power. What are your thoughts and what are the DOE doing to deal with those particular issues or challenges?

Yeah, so this is a topic that’s on top of everybody’s mind. You know, I would expand it a little bit further beyond just simply data centers for things like AI and crypto mining or wherever it might be. We’re also seeing, you know, a large transition to the electrification of the US economy, increasing the numbers of EVs on the road, increasing numbers of people trying to electrify their homes. And so there is basically just a lot of growth happening on the grid. And so this is coming at a time when for the last few decades, America’s electricity consumption has stayed relatively flat or even contracted in some years.

And so now we’re starting to see appreciable year on year growth in terms of electricity needs. And so the DOE is work. Working, you know, really hand in hand with utilities, system operators and others to understand what are the assets that are needed to be able to power all of these critical pieces of infrastructure, and how can we work with the entities who also want to build these systems such that they can effectively source the assets they need to fund these products.

And so we both look at, how do we build out and speed the interconnection of solar and other clean energy assets to the grid or other energy assets writ large, so that way they can serve these loads. We’re also thinking about, how do you deploy and work with the people who need these loads to deploy these things behind the meter as well, because if we can put it behind a meter, that’s a little bit of stress that we need on the grid. And so we’re working hard on these topics.

You know, I was at a conference earlier this year in Texas, and Texas is seeing explosive growth, both in terms of solar and data centers, and it’s something that we have a keen eye on, because we need these kinds of things as a nation, because we want to be leading in all new technologies. And of course, you know, continuing to push the electrification as it makes sense for our economy.

Where are we at in terms of benefits of rooftop solar and and our rollout of rooftop solar, and when I’m referring to that is more kind of on homes as well as on businesses and and if there have been any incentives created by the IRA to build out more of the rooftop solar infrastructure around the country, rooftop solar continues to grow a great deal in the United States.

So we have, you know, over 5 million systems installed the United States. And again, a vast majority, you know, 90 plus percent of those are rooftop, smaller scale systems, where no individual homeowners are kind of taking charge of their energy future. Now, with some changes to net energy meeting policies in places like California, we are seeing it slow down a little bit. We are seeing growth across the rest of the United States as well.

And so the Inflation Reduction Act continues to have in place things like the investment tax credits, and so those are a critical driver in terms of continuing to see growth in this space. And we’re also starting to see with more batteries coming down in costs, the increase in the number of solar and storage systems out there, which gives homeowners even more flexibility, particularly in instances where the grid may go down, or things of that nature. We’re really trying to work with states, local governments and others to try and bring efficiency to these processes, to make it easier for businesses to do solar business, find customers, and then ultimately drive those costs down further for the consumer.

But we still see a lot of great year over year kind of growth in the residential space, and I know, personally, I love rooftop solar. This is why I got into the game, and I’m just excited to see that continue to grow into the future. And our team work with all the stakeholders out there have a stake in this to drive that further. And I will say, you know, one other area that we look at a lot is just trying to make sure that we have informed consumers.

This is another big area, and so the Federal Trade Commission and some others have put out a consumer advisory for people to just be aware of scams that might be happening out there in the solar industry. And we’re working very close with our colleagues across the government to make sure people, again, have impartial resources so they can understand everything related to solar and make the decision that’s best for themselves.

Well, in terms of the, you know, I think you brought up a really important point, and I hadn’t heard this before, is that Australia can do this at a level of $1 whatever, 50 per watt, and we’re up at two to $3 it seems as though, technologically, I assume, we’re on same footing. We’re using same materials.

So seems like not, maybe not an easy win, because we do have so many local governments and state governments involved in this, in this process. But what is the DOE done to encourage states and localities to kind of streamline permitting so that we can get rooftop installations up as well as bring rooftop costs down.

Australia is definitely a unique place in that, you know, there have different purchasing patterns from the rest of the world, and we might as well they do permitting kind of at the higher level, more closer to what we would consider the state level, while we do it more at the even very local or town level, there’s also just a lot of competition and streamlined interconnection of systems to the grid and so forth.

So they’ve really taken a forward looking approach to maximizing the amount of solar energy they have on their grid. And so I think we’re certainly looking for lessons, but we also have to make sure that these work in the US context. So for example, with plummeting there are 1000s of different jurisdictions in the United States, and there are little changes that are might be challenged for someone to do work across a jurisdictional line. So for example, one town might have first name, last name.

So, Garrett Nilse.n at the top of their form in the town across the river from me, might say last name, first name, so Nilsen and Garrett on the top of their form. And if people aren’t filling out these forms in the right way, it slows down those processes, increase the cost for someone to get a permit, and subsequently increases the cost that goes on to the consumer.

So we’ve developed tools like what we call the solar app, plus where that was developed by MRL and has now been spun out into the private sector for a foundation that’s running it. And so this is a opt in resource for communities to be able to have a platform that will allow them to streamline people’s ability to fill out a private make it more uniform for the businesses in those areas who are working across jurisdictions to fill out forms.

Those are some ways in which we can help drive down costs of residential solar. And another good one too, is, you know, making sure that we have informed consumers. It costs a lot to acquire a customer in the residential space. You know, there have been numbers where up to, you know, maybe 10% of the cost of a system can be just finding you as a customer.

And you know, the more we can do to educate consumers so they feel confident going into those processes on the more we can do to make people aware of how solar works and just how to think about it in terms of whether their homes, even, you know, make sense for it.

They might have a big, beautiful tree in front of their house, and if they spend time talking to a solar installer to only to find out they are shaded too much, you know that’s some time and effort and cost that might need to be passed on to someone else. And so the more that we can do to help jurisdictions streamline their processes.

We also have another program I should mention, called Soul Smart, which is the designation program for towns and jurisdictions to say, take certain actions to make them sure they’re open for solar business. So the more we can help local governments, the better, the more we can help utilities streamline how we interconnect systems to the grid, the better, the more we can do to inform consumers, the better as well.

And that will all lead to synergies that we hope will lead to further driving down costs. Let me talk to you about kind of systemic, wide issues that solar has had and ways that it seems to be addressed. You hear a lot of talk about, hey, solar power isn’t any good when the sun sets. And now, battery technology has rolled out substantially in recent years, and I know a lot of states and local areas are using batteries to get charged from solar power and then feeding it back onto the grid during evening hours. What is the DOE done to help that process, facilitate that process so that solar can be better used in the in the mix of power that we’re getting?

So, you know, the way I view our office in the Department of Energy writ large is, you know, we’re kind of tool makers, and so we want to make sure that the right tools are in the toolbox of a utility, of a homeowner, whoever it might be, to be able to either go solar or integrate solar onto a grid. And so we spent years funding research and developing technologies that will allow solar to more seamlessly interplay with battery energy storage, so that makes it just really easier for things to operate for both from the homeowners perspective, from the grid operators perspective, so they maintain reliable and resilient energy systems.

And so part of these are coming up with new ways to visualize how the systems are working. Part of these are developing new tools or way to think about kind of the net load of a home, because if you think about a utility, they only see what comes out of my meter, but behind my meter, there is some sort of consumption going on. My fridge is kicking on, my HVAC or things like that. There’s some amount of generation going on. My Solar System is producing.

And so they need to understand what those net loads are and what to expect and how to project those into the future. And we’ve run things like our net load and solar forecasting prizes, where we bring together technical development teams to develop modeling tools that can project and predict into the future what loads are going to be. So that’s kind of one example there where we’re really looking to work with utilities and the grid operators to make sure they have the tools they need to understand how the grid will work and make sure that the interplay with solar plus storage works well.

One final area that we’re looking at really hard is also understanding how solar and storage can be used in what are called Black start situations. So if there is a power outage, you need some initial assets to come online first, to help start up the other assets on the grid. So this has traditionally been a role filled by kind of inertial based assets. Think about coal plants or things like that, but we’ve been taking the effort to make sure that we’re proving out that solar and storage assets can play those similar roles, and we’re seeing that they can.

So it’s a combination of both hardware and software development and then making sure that we’re testing tools and getting them in the hands of the end users who need them, to make sure that they are comfortable with them, because at the end of the day, we all want our lights on when we need them, and we’re just developing the tools in the toolbox such that any party on the grid or interacts with the grid has what they need to do their day to day op, operation and live their life well in terms of the grid and the build out of the grid.

That’s another topic that often comes up in things that I’m reading about, the challenges of building out a grid as and it’s related to the increase in electrical usage. That is, as you just outlined, more electrical cars, more data centers, all this stuff. What progress have we made in the last four years regarding building out the grid and and kind of, are we on a good trajectory to continue the build out in the ways that are necessary?

You know, under this administration, they’ve established groups like a grid deployment office inside the DOE that have gotten a very large amount of money, particularly from the bipartisan infrastructure law, to help improve the electric grid. And so this can be anything from reconducting wires so that they can carry more capacity on our transmission grid all the way through to using different kinds of tools at either the transmission or local levels on how to manage the energy that’s on the grid itself.

There’s literally been billions of dollars of grants been spun out over the last few years. Of course, what’s always a challenge is, you know, the government passes laws such as the infrastructure law, and it takes some time for these to get the money, to get to the right party, for warp to start. The good news is a lot of this money has been awarded to date.

So I really expect over the years to come that we’ll see continued improvements in terms of the technological ability for our grid to absorb and use more renewable assets, absorb and grow to fulfill the growing electrification needs of the US as well.

So kind of circling back to what we had talked about, of production of solar panels on US soil. Where are we at now in terms of percentage of panels being produced here? And is there a goal at the DOE to increase it? And kind of, what is that goal in the long term?

We really want to make sure, at a minimum, that we can, you know, assemble the modules and build the modules that we want and need for the US inside of the US. I mean, that was, you know, the starting goal of of the Biden administration. Of course, if we could reach a point where we’re able to export stuff, that would be great.

But let’s, let’s start in country first, and in terms of module assembly, the final step, we’re getting pretty close in terms of the number of gigawatts of module assembly in the United States compared to the number of gigawatts that we deploy in a given year. Now this is really kind of come on the back of the incentives from the inflation Reduction Act, and we’re really excited to see that growth from both companies, like first solar on the CAD teleside, but also an increasing array of companies in the crystal and silicon side as well, where we are still hoping to see additional growth is in the form of cell manufacturing.

Can get in wafer manufacturing and poly silicon manufacturing. These have come along a little bit slower. These are generally very large investments needed to build these facilities, and folks want to make sure that they have, you know, off take agreements and things like that in place before they make these large investments.

And so this has also been further complicated by things like, you know, changes in interest rates, you know, continue kind of global pressure in terms of the overall cost of solar, and we’re hoping to see continued growth in those areas, and we’re trying to think about how we can actively help companies who want to build stuff further upstream.

Here in the United States, on the module assembly side, we’ve seen great growth, and reaching the point where we really hope to see that the amount of manufacturers here in the US corresponds with the amount that we’re deploying, and that would be a really great first step towards building out a complete supply chain.

Now, I understand that it’s challenging to for, you know, large plants to to build facilities where they’re going to have enough skilled workers that are available, particularly in an economy that is fairly close to full employment.

What are you seeing in that respect? As far as you know, the manufacturers that you’re working with and siting plants and places that they can have, you know, a workforce that’s going to be available to take these jobs.

This is complicated by the fact that, you know, when we think about manufacturing and the technicians and engineering experts that run manufacturing facilities, you know we’re competing those with also, you know, battery companies that are standing up manufacturing in the US, you know, other components of the supply chain that are standing up manufacturing us, like inverters or other portions of solar systems.

So there’s a lot of competition that does give a lot of opportunity for people to get very well paying jobs in these spaces. An example of how our office is trying to help is we’ve launched a prize with group called the upskill prize. And so the idea here is that if you are a manufacturer, you’re going to be standing up a facility, and given location that we want to work with you and work with a third party trainer to train the staff that you need.

So a good example of this is that we provided an award to the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. To work with for solar, to help train staff to for people who will ultimately go work in that for solar manufacturing facility. And so the idea is, let’s, let’s help build capacity at the training facilities so that the manufacturers can focus on what they do best, which is manufacturing. And so we’re eager to see other people take advantage of this funding opportunity as well.

So again, it’s called the upskill prize, and we’re very cognizant that we need to continue to educate the American workforce to work on these products and well, the growth we’re seeing is good. I think most of the manufacturers we’re seeing are able to find the people that we need. So we just need to make sure that we as the government are helping the industry stay ahead of this and provide the skilled labor force that they need that can ultimately provide, you know, very well paying jobs for Americans.

Well, I think that it’s really a 21st century problem, and that I don’t think in in prior years, there was probably as much need to get the workforce, kind of educated, as quickly to a a market which is moving so fast in technology that is a big challenge. But tell us any other ways that the DOE is involved in helping facilitate educating a workforce to be prepared to take the jobs of the 21st century.

It’s really an all hands on deck sort of approach. You know, we certainly think about, how do we work too, with our colleagues, say, at the Department of Labor, or even at places like the National Science Foundation, as they think about, like, what are the curriculum those schools to get people stem educated and ready for these jobs in the future?

So we’re really trying to take an active role and look at kind of all parties that can help bring labor to bear, and one, to make sure that they’re obviously educated. Two, that they, you know, see a line of sight to continue growth in that skill set or in that job set, and that they have the ability to do, yeah, grow into their roles over time.

And so we need to be thinking about this from everything, from where, what kind of are the base levels of science engineering, understanding that folks have all the way up through, you know, more in depth training for folks who are working in our manufacturing facilities, operating our electric grid, installing solar energy. And so we’re really trying to take a kind of cross technology approach, I think, in the DOE, where it doesn’t help for us to just think about, say, the solar industry alone.

We want to work with our colleagues and other offices to think about okay, and though, in the world of the electrification of the US grid and the rollout of things like solar and wind, no what is the full breadth of tech of people that we need to be skilled, everything from the installers in the field to the increasing need for electricians across the US, the increased need to technicians and work at the DOE are thinking about people across every single one of those elements.

And so there is coordinated thinking, coordinated programming. And then, of course, offices like ours doing very specific stuff that we need for, say the installation workforce of the future, or the manufacturing workforce of the future, like I was mentioning as well.

Let’s circle back to the dollars per watt that it costs to generate solar power versus natural gas or coal, and it’s my understanding that that solar has gotten cheaper than either natural gas or coal. A, is that true and B, why are we still seeing natural gas plants being rolled out if, If, in fact, solar is cheaper?

Lazar puts out a great kind of chart every year, which shows kind of the breadth of the different costs for installing a given system across energy technologies. And there is, of course, some spectrum in terms of the cost of installing a system. Now this might correspond to either geographic differences, labor cost differences and a variety of things.

So it’s hard to pin down, say, one exact number for the states, but when you look at the latest version of this Lazard chart, and I’m happy to kind of point out where to find it for you, is we see solar and wind, even unsubsidized, as kind of the lowest cost energy producer out there. Of course, as we mentioned earlier, there are some limitations in that we have to be able to generate electricity when, obviously, the sun doesn’t shine or the wind doesn’t blow. And we’re seeing that solar plus storage system, the wind plus storage systems, are increasingly able to fill this gap.

But you know, as we think about the different values of different energy systems or different energy technologies, we need to acknowledge that, you know, things like natural gas can play a strong role in terms of ramping up or ramping down, playing that capacity role. As we roll out more storage and more renewable energy assets, they can also, in some instances, be quicker permanent because they might have a smaller footprint, or things like that, compared to where they want to go in a given community. So there’s a lot of variances at play.

But you know, globally, solar is the cheapest form of electricity that the world has ever seen in the US. Solar and wind continue to be the cheapest form of electricity, but there’s no as we think about kind of all of the above approach to energy. We need to make sure that we’re playing to the strengths of different technologies as well as we see the further growth of solar and wind and that kind of electrification on a quick grow.

So it’s a it’s hard to say that there’s, there’s kind of one thing in one instance, everything is a little bit unique in its own way. Or at the end of the day, we want to make sure that we’re deploying the assets that will keep the lights on and make sure we have a reliable, resilient and secure electricity.

Greatly appreciate you coming on the program, Garrett, to share with us about what’s going on in your department at the US Department of Energy, solar energy’s technology, and you know, the great work that you’re doing over there, maybe you can tell us kind of what’s on the horizon, exciting projects that you’re particularly excited about rolling out in years to come.

We always have a lot of really interesting stuff going on. I think I kind of alluded to it earlier, but I think one of the big efforts that we have going on that will be particularly important is our work on interconnection of assets to the grid.

Right now, there are terawatts of renewable energy assets sitting in interconnection queues around the country, particularly for large scale systems, and in some instances, they might wait years before they get a green light to actually connect to the grid. And so we have a program going called the interconnection innovation exchange.

We call i 2x that is really bringing stakeholders together, pushing out in the use of new tools and ways that we can speed the interconnection processes for assets. And I think that’s something that really gets me excited, in terms of kind of accelerating further the deployment of renewable assets, and you know, as we get more of those in the grid, that’s going to cascade down to other interesting technologies we have going on that I mentioned earlier, around how we operate the grid. How do we visualize the grid and even further into the future?

What gets me excited is some of the work we’re doing in our concentrating solar thermal space, where we’re particularly looking at how we use thermal energy for industrial processes. Industrial processes are a large source of carbon in the United States, and they might be able to benefit both in terms of carbon reduction and or cost reduction, by figuring out new ways that we can bring thermal assets to bear to provide energy for those thermal processes.

So that’s really exciting, too. There’s always more going on, but there’s a couple that top in my head, both in terms of the nearer and longer term of what we’re working on. And just maybe you can give us a minute more about the thermal energy stuff we hear about that in terms of making concrete or steel or things like that which require a lot of heat or a lot of energy. What is the way that solar could be involved to help green those processes?

We started to fund some work, or some initial kind of demonstrations of how it could be used, particularly in like the food space or the chemical processing space. We’re really looking at how you could co locate, basically mirrors to create heat to then deliver those to those facilities for whatever use they might need.

Getting to higher temperatures is something that we think that those solar thermal space can help with, maybe working in concert with other thermal assets as well, to maybe reduce the amount of, say, natural gas you might need to to get to high temperature processes. Of course, the big challenge here is that these are big, generally big assets, and big investments in these facilities that last a very long time.

And so we’re trying to work closely with our friends in the industrial energy office here in DOE to think about how solar can be integrated into these processes and be a clean source of heat for all of our industries around the United States. And so it’s an exciting time with a lot of very interesting research to be done, so much more to come on this one.

Garrett, thank you for being on the program, and look forward to continuing to follow the work that you’re doing over the Department of Energy. It’s really very important for our country to clean up our energy and reduce pollution around the country and around the world.

Thank you, Matt, I’m really happy to be here. Appreciate the invite.