In an ideal world, in democracies, you have the power to vote and elect those that are supposedly looking after you and common good. Unfortunately, we already know that that’s not the case. I mean, in practically in any democracy.

You’re listening to A Climate Change, this is Matt Matern, your host. I’ve got a great guest on the program, Mauricio Porras. Mauricio is a founder of HERO back in 2020 which provides basic income to activists, researchers, campaigners, climate mobilizers. He’s also the podcast host of climate human. Climate humans and a TEDx speaker, great to have you on the program. Mauricio.

Hi Matt. Very excited to be here with you, and thanks so much for the invitation.

Well. So tell us a bit about your journey and what brought you to the climate movement.

It’s a long story, but I’ll try to give you the short version. I’ve always been fascinated about how to use existing systems and turn them around for the common good. So I have a background in communications, and the first kind of area where I started looking after that was around advertising and communications. So I said, humanity has this clearly very effective tool called advertising and communications, which is driving a lot of people, millions of people, to buy stuff they don’t need to influence culture. What happens if we use that, turn it around and use it for the common good.

And so I started with that idea. One of the first impact agencies back in Costa Rica and for Latin America, basically helping brands use their voice to mobilize their consumers, more as citizens and less as consumers, to do good. And so that’s how I started. I did that for over eight years, and it was during those type of events and activations on the ground with communities, with people, that I saw that despite what people think, actually we all want to do something.

We want to leave our mark. We want to help others, and sometimes what we’re missing are the opportunities or making it fun or accessible for people. And that led me to then, as you well, described in 2020 during the pandemic, watching also in parallel, the Fridays for future. Movement rising up, basically, mobilizers, activists, the youth movement, creating that momentum that led me to then think of if there’s people on the ground that want to do more, if there’s Climate Leaders that clearly are working to mobilize these people, how can we create a bridge between citizens and this incredible Climate Leaders, is there something that we can explore there that is the foundation of how hero was born?

So tell us about HERO, and what the work is, how it started, where it’s going, and some of the success stories of of the organization.

Of course. Well, as I said, in 2020 I had this big question, like, how is this gonna Youth Movement sustain themselves when they’re no longer, you know, in their 1890s out of out of uni? So how, how would they sustain this work? And so I started a podcast now called Climate humans back in the day, just a hero podcast, and I started interviewing all of this amazing leaders, and always asked them the question, are you getting paid to do this work?

And if not, how do you plan on sustaining it? You know, 510, years from now, if, if that is in your plans. And basically the common denominator was, we’re not getting paid to do this work, and there’s no really a plan on on how to get it paid. So that led me to, you know, start brainstorming and conceptualizing the foundations of hero, very inspired in in the same model as Patreon, for example, for content creators and artists like,

How can this be backed by people, everyday people. How can we give the tools to everyday people to have a big impact? And that’s where I met my co founder, Sylvan, through actually one, one of those episodes that he listened to and reach out to me. And that’s where we decided to start that journey on, how can we build this platform? How would it look? There’s no playbook for this sort of thing. No one had created it before.

So we’ve been since then, three years ago, navigating and trying to create that playbook, essentially for the movement and others on how to fund those amazing individuals on the. Around doing this work.

Well, I heard you talk about it in your TEDx talk, which I highly recommend everybody check out, because it’s a great synopsis of the work that you’re doing. You talked about a group in Brazil that you’re working with and a group in the EU that you’re working with. Tell us a little bit about those two groups, as well as what other groups have you started and and where do you see this expanding to?

Yeah, so well, we’re currently supporting 100 leaders across 30 countries. And to go back to the other point that you asked on on our plans is basically, we will be expanding that support to 250 leaders this year, 750 leaders by and the end of of next year, and we plan to support 10,000 mobilizers by 2030 so we have a lot of work to do.

And the way we we support this mobilizers, they can either apply as individuals and then they go to what we call the global circle, which is basically where all the mobilizers is. 100 leaders are on a platform, but they also have the opportunity to create their own circles, and that’s what you’re referring to. We have an indigenous rights circle in Brazil who has been working at the forefront of defending land rights, indigenous lands rights in Brazil.

So they were part of a big, big victory on the Marco temporal case, which basically was about reclaiming indigenous lands rights. So they won that case in Brazil. And at the EU level, we also have a very strong circle who has been behind the EU Green Deal, most recently, behind the nature restoration law, which aims to protect 20% of the EU, you know, nature and ecosystems, and currently working on the clean industrial deal, which is, you know, the the newest version of the Green Deal, who is what, which is being discussed in the EU Parliament as we speak.

So, any plans to start a group in the United States, it seems like we could use one right about now.

Yes, yes. It’s definitely in our plans to to expand to the US. We are supporting some some mobilizers there, but we definitely, you know, hero is all about empowering those community leaders. Super important. We have a very solutions driven approach, non violent advocacy. All mobilizers on hero are bedded and verified by partners and organizations on the ground. So we’re very much looking forward to supporting more of those leaders, you know, out there, not only in the US, but across the world.

So in terms of focus, I see that, you know, you are working with the EU, which is developed developed countries. Are you planning to work more with developing countries? Or, you know, mixing it up in both areas.

Yeah. So hero is quite global. Right now we support across 30 different countries from the 100 leaders that we have right now, 60% of them are from the global south. So yes, mostly developed in developing, developing countries, and basically creating that infrastructure on how, how can we connect both, you know, both worlds.

How can mobilizers from the global north learn from the work that mobilizers on the global south are doing and vice versa, just accelerating that knowledge sharing across geographies. The foundations of many of this work is when you look at policies across the world, it’s quite similar in terms of the foundations. Of course, the context changes, but we’re working to accelerate those across geographies.

Well, you talked about reimagining activism in your TEDx talk, and I thought that was an interesting phrase, and I think that we certainly need to do that here in the US like and, you know, vouch for that, and feel like we’re hitting, being hit by a kind of a tidal wave of action that is tearing down a lot of the environmental laws and regulations that have, you know we were working to build for decades. I wondering what your thoughts are of how, how your model could work, given this tidal wave that we’re facing.

Yeah, I think one, one of the main learnings you know, from the previous years of mobilizing for climate has been that I think we’ve built a sort of climate bubble, and we have missed the opportunity to speak to broader audiences. So I think when we say, what’s, you know, what’s the next phase, or reimagining activism is more around how we can create.

Bridges with people like basically burn less bridges and build more. And so how can we bring more people into the equation? How can we make this more about everyday people? Link it to the issues that people care about, so less technical, less about 1.5 degrees and, you know, tipping points and more about clean air, clean water.

How can we secure food, healthy food, for people, and so I think a lot of the work that we’re trying to do and support moving forward is, how do you focus on the solutions? How do you showcase the stories of successful, community led solutions that are being very successfully led, you know, by communities around the world. And so it’s, it’s that combination of better storytelling focused on solutions. It’s about broadening also the people, and, you know, making this a very welcoming movement, making it relatable to people.

And then the the other crucial point is around, how do you learn from the existing data that you have and so, more to the point of, how can you create better campaigns? How can you determine how to better engage decision makers with data that is already available and using that technology that is already available? And so how do you build that flexible, agile, resilient movement in the long term that is able to be more solution driven, and that is able to engage people and meeting people where they’re at.

Yeah, I mean, just kind of two concrete examples here in the US is Texas and Florida. Those are two states that are definitely being hit by climate change, Florida. I mean, just on the front lines with, you know, sea levels rising and more hurricanes and all this, and you’re wondering, how would people vote against that kind of obvious evidence of destruction hitting them, yet they seem to have done so, you know, how do you propose kind of connecting people to those, those dots, that evidence that you know, concern so they get activated.

Yeah, I think that the first thing we need to do is de politicize the discussion. I think we need to build more from shared purposes and common places. And I think we all can agree despite you know who your ideology or your political party? I think we all can agree that we, if we move from a place of care, and we and we move from there, we all care, for example, about future generations.

We all care about having clean air, about enjoying, you know, the nature and outdoors. I mean, we, some might enjoy running, others might enjoy just, you know, reading a book under a tree while enjoying the clean air. So I think if we start moving from a place of care and love for the people and the places and the experiences that we cherish, I think then from there we we can start activating from a totally different place.

They think we need to move away from the divisions, from from the noise, from this, you know, black and white perspective of like I’m wrong, and if I admit, you know I’m wrong, then I’m basically saying that you’re right. And so I think there’s a lot of nuances in this climate crisis, but, but one of the big learnings is we need to make it less about climate, and we need to make it more about the natural world, the people and the things that we love.

Yeah, I think that that makes sense, because a lot of people have great concern about nature. They might be hunters and things like this, and but they care about nature and in some ways, and connecting that with them on the areas of concern that they do have, and and that’s that’s a challenge, but particularly it seems as though the actions in the US seem so radical and so quick, long term thinking is questionable, like, hey, we need to do something to stem the tide immediately.

Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting, because I think that’s one, one way to see it. Another way is, this is some very important piece of work that needs to be done in, you know, it’s a very long term, you know, it’s like going to the gym. To put it in simple terms, you need to put in the work, you need to show up, you need to be consistent to eventually see some results.

And so I don’t think this is something that we will be able to solve from. One week to the other, and when we see this backlashes or the noise in the media, I think we need to stop for a second. First, have a very deep breath, you know, and not not let it get to our heads, but turn back to community. I think there’s real power in in communities, and that’s where real change can happen from the ground up.

And so even though you may see all this noise in the media or on social media, I’m pretty sure that if you turn your site to the communities, you will feel very inspired. There. You will see people working and supporting each other and just making sure that their neighbors are right. And you see this in in, you know, when, when communities are in crisis. I’m pretty sure you saw this, you know, recently in LA with with the fires.

I mean you when people are exposed to this crisis, and you look at the people on the ground, it’s very different to what you see on on the media. I’m pretty sure you see kindness, you see compassion, you see people looking after each other. And so those stories are there every single day. And so I think that the real work that we need to do in order to stay resilient for the challenges ahead is just reminding ourselves that every single day they think it’s more the amount of people that are doing good that those that are trying to go down go in the opposite direction.

The only problem is that probably they have a bigger platform or managed to create more noise, but then I think it’s through this place of care that we can counter that noise.

I think that’s beautifully said, and I do think that even after the Trump first administration, a lot of good things came out of it, because I think a lot of local action was taken. A lot of action on the state level occurred that might not have happened. So it kind of woke up the country like, hey, stuff is happening. We need to, we need to do something. So I greatly agree with what you’re saying. Hey, let’s, let’s focus on what we can do. Get Local.

Doesn’t mean that you completely lose sight of what’s happening on an international, national basis, but, but do what you can so it grounds our ourselves. And you know, we can make a big difference. And as I like to repeat something that Cesar Chavez said, which is that every dollar we spend is a vote.

So let’s spend our dollars wisely and maybe not spend them in certain areas, which is a vote too. So, you know, I agree with you on that front.

Yeah. And I think one, you know, and if we really want to get philosophical and existential in terms of, how do you really beat down the capitalistic system is, you know, most of that system is built around individualism, and the eye is just like what I need, what I feel, what I want, what I want to accomplish. And I think really, in the mid long term, how we really break that cycle.

And this is even beyond just climate, you know, is about communities, about the US, the power that lies within us as a collective. And I think the more we can tap into that power, not only on climate, but on all the other range of of issues, I think that’s where the solution lies, and it’s in our humanity to be, you know, to be in a collective environment and support each other.

So I think it’s actually quite counter intuitive to live in and very individualistic system. And I think that’s many of the of causing, you know, many of the things that we’re seeing today is just that it’s not natural for us to think only about ourselves, right?

Yeah, we grew up as collective groups. You know, we were, that’s how, that’s our history. And, you know, unfortunately, kind of modern society is breaking that up. All you need is your your iPhone, and that’s it, you know, I don’t need friends. I’ve got everything on my iPhone. So, yeah, connecting to other people is super important. And as you were talking, I was thinking about the the Uber example of the individualism is the billionaire, and it’s the i, i and having that kind of wealth and potential power invested in in one person is is

So, you know, potentially dangerous, and we’re seeing some of the effects of that now and and as you had said on your TEDx, talk talking about all the money that the lobbyists get for. Or big oil so billions and billions of dollars that they have at their disposal, which they are lobbying Congress and all the legislative bodies all over the world all the time. And as I understood it, hero is kind of the antidote to to that process of saying, hey, let’s get regular folks out there lobbying on our behalf, rather than just the petro states and, you know, huge billionaires controlling fossil fuel companies.

Yeah. I mean, in an ideal world, in democracies, you you have the power to vote and elect, you know those that are supposedly looking after, after you, and you know the common good. Unfortunately, we already know that that’s not the case. I mean, in in practically, in any, in any democracy.

So there’s, as you all described in the talk, there’s a bear hidden, you know, power that we don’t elect, but that is very present in politics, which is, you know, or are the lobby groups and so, yeah, our whole, our whole, you know, theory of change with hero is those groups are very well funded, very well positioned to influence decisions on our behalf that we don’t we’re not even aware that are being discussed. So how can we bring more transparency?

How can we allow for democracy to be more inclusive and allow for citizens to have a way to raise their concerns? You know, more flexible and and agile way way. And we believe that the counter force of those lobby groups, we already have them in societies, which what we call mobilizers, but like activists, people that are advocates for their communities, those people are already doing the work at the front lines.

And so, going back to my initial point on the things that drive me is around building upon existing systems. If you already have, on one end, the lobby groups that are very effective, unfortunately, at doing what they do, then how can we use that same system or logic and then just build a counter force that will work for the common good and for us.

The best people or leaders position to do that are the mobilizers. And so that brings us to to the point of the funding, which is they are doing this work anyway, and they’re amazing and very effective at creating change. What happens if we get them the right funding, we allow them to not only sustain their work with with a basic income, but we go even further and allow them to have all the resources the same access to the technology, to the tools, to the data, to the support system around them, to actually become a counter force in equal terms and level the playing field.

And I think, you know, our our biggest, you know, challenge is, how do we show citizens of the power that this tool can have? How do we show that that there’s a way to restore trust in democracy, that there’s a way that their voices can actually be heard, and that they have the power to influence those policies as well, to make sure that the people that they elected are actually looking after their, you know, their own common good.

That’s it’s a powerful idea and and it’s certainly something I hadn’t heard of before. You know, you came on the show, or before we proposed Avenue on the show. And I think it’s, it’s an excellent idea, and I encourage people to support your organization and and check it out. It it’s a brilliant idea, when I think about it more.

And as you described it just a second ago, it’s, you know, being an activist out on your own without any kind of infrastructure of support. It’s like a business if you don’t have the support staff, it’s really hard to get business done if you don’t have an office where you can get whatever, you know, copies made and stuff done.

And so I think leveling the playing field requires getting activists similar tools to what, of course, a corporate lobbyist for the oil company has all of the tools at their disposal, everything a group of experts that can be at their speed dial and all of this stuff that makes them even more powerful than just one individual, because they have an insane amount of resources at their fingertips. So we’ve got to kind of create level that playing field.

I can just say, from a personal experience, you know, I’m a civil rights attorney, and so we sue various and. Entities that are discriminating against our clients. And one of the things the legislature has done is that you get attorney fees if you win. So it encouraged attorneys to come in and represent people that otherwise would have zero representation.

And essentially you’re doing the same thing by kind of giving funding to people that otherwise, their voices aren’t going to be heard because they don’t have the money, they’re just not going to be heard. That’s the bottom line. So, you know, kudos to you and your organization. And you know, I really think it’s amazing what can be done if, if we put put money into it and get people out on the ground mobilizing.

I mean, it’s quite easy. We’ve made it quite easy for citizens to get engaged. Basically, they just need to go to hero circle dot app. It’s a web app where, simply, you would subscribe at starting at six euros a month, six, $7 if I’m not getting the you know the exchange correct. But basically it’s just, we’ve tried to build something that people can relate to, just like you would subscribe to Netflix to Spotify.

Those are services that you know we enjoy and and use every every single day. Probably then hero becomes that subscription public service that you have if you care about climate change, if you care about the the power of communities, and now, more than ever, keeping you know, our democracy safe, then this is the it doesn’t get easier than than this math. I mean, it’s just we’ve built it with with people in mind that want to do something, but maybe don’t know how.

Where do I allocate my money, where I want to get involved, but I don’t have the time, but I want to have a huge impact, and so this is one of the easiest ways that you have to directly support policies that have a huge, huge return of investment. So to put it in those terms, you maybe sacrifice a couple of coffees a month, and for the price of those two coffees, you’re supporting over 100 leaders around the world that are looking after your benefit.

That’s that’s a good way of looking at it. And I think, hey, those oil companies are funding their lobbyists. We, as citizens who care about the climate need to fund our lobbyists. And and $6 or $7 a month is a reasonable amount to do. And as a starter, obviously people can give more, I would assume. But of course, some of us who might be able to, yeah, reach into our pockets and give to organizations that are really doing great work, and it’s a force multiplier.

So I think we all want to do good, and we all want to be engaged in helping and great work on your behalf, to create a channel for people to step in and help out, because we may not have enough time to do it ourselves, but we can certainly share some of our wealth with those who are on the ground. Yeah, and

One of the things I love about hero, and it’s not because I’m one of the co founders, but it’s about the stories of people on the ground. So when we’ve basically built a platform around storytelling and making sure, you know, one thing that makes hero quite unique is you’re funding individuals. You’re funding people and so very different to funding an organization, which I also motivate you to do but here with Hero, you’re actually funding real people.

You get their stories every month, what they have been up to. Then you can see what, for example, Dominic Palmer is doing in the UK. Then you can see what you know, Adelaide is doing at the EU level with the nature restoration law and so a lot of the things that we’re trying to do is to tell better stories around the behind the scenes of this work.

You usually just see the headlines and see what happens, whether that’s a win or a loss, but you don’t see all the months of preparation, everything that takes to put, you know, a piece of legislation forward. And so we’re bringing people, you know, inside those spaces and and and bringing them closer to the mobilizers, telling their story, seeing the process. And so I we’ve, we’ve had some very, very cool testimonials from supporters on, you know, like I really feel part when we achieve a win, I really feel part of those wins, because I’ve been witnessing all the work and the preparation that has gone into mobilizing people.

And so when you start seeing that for yourself, and then you see the impact that that’s going to have on your community or your country, then. And that’s where it starts getting quite interesting. And the the other piece is around, you know how, as you were saying, the building those lobbies for the people is it’s about people owning their future. It’s about them being able to have a say on on the things that matter to them, and creating these decentralized way of funding their own people, you know, to dedicate more time to look after these policies and hold politicians accountable for decisions that they’re making on everyone’s behalf.

Mauricio, I really like that point you just made, which is kind of the demystification of the process and that for many of us, we haven’t been involved in politics on that kind of micro level. I i was lobbying for bill regarding the homelessness issue here in California and and I went up to Sacramento and was talking to legislators up there, and I hadn’t done that before, and just seeing behind the scenes. And I’m a lawyer for 30 years, and, like, you know, it was mystical to me.

So, like, it’s, it’s a fascinating thing to see behind the curtain a bit and see, okay, these are just regular folks doing this and and it can be done, and I can’t, my voice can be heard if I engage. And I think that that’s an amazing piece of the work that you’re doing it, you know, to let people behind that curtain see, okay, I can do this work, or even if I’m not personally doing it, I can be involved in it.

Know more about it. And you know, the next time something, you know there’s a need in my community, I can, I know who I could go to to move the ball, maybe, exactly.

And I think also changing what a hero means when we decided to name, you know, the platform HERO is not to put all these people on pedestals, but actually redefining what a hero means in our times. And it’s about someone that chose to do something, as you very well said, like everyday people, it could be any of us that just chooses to take action and do something and push solutions forward.

And so a lot of the of the things that that we are proud of in terms of supporting this incredible individuals is also humanizing this work. It’s the word activist is so charged these days, you know, with with so many things attached to it. But what we’re really trying to do is tell a different story on who is behind this work.

Why are they doing it? Why should you care about what they’re doing and just showing that it’s, as you said, regular folks that chose to do something and that are fighting and working for the people. And so I think that’s a very you know, I feel very fortunate and grateful that I get to do this work and just showcase the incredible efforts that are being done in communities around the world.

Well, one of the examples, and maybe you can tell us a little bit about the story of the work done in the EU on the green New Deal of changing the, you know, percentage of, I guess it was renewables, from 41 to 55% and what effect that had on on the EU?

Yes, so I have a couple of stories regarding the EU. One, one is that one on increasing the percentage. And while it may seem like a very small percentage, actually it translates into millions of emissions avoided. And so France Timmermans at that time, you know, the Vice President of the EU Commission on climate, said, without these mobilizers, we wouldn’t have first a Green Deal and then we wouldn’t have more ambition on that Green Deal.

And so that’s where, you know, there’s a study by the Stanford Social Innovation Review, which analyzed the impact per euro or per dollar spent in climate movements and mobilizers. And it’s up to 100 times more effective than putting your money in carbon credits, for example. And when you look at why that is, is because, for example, in the EU Green Deal, or there’s examples with EU policy, when you change a law, you’re essentially affecting the whole system.

And so it’s not so much about compensating for the carbon that you already put out there, but actually it’s the amount of carbon that will never go off the ground. And so with that concrete case of the EU Green Deal, we’re talking about millions of tons avoided that will never see the day of you know, the light of day, because there’s a policy in place to avoid those emissions from going to the air.

Well, kudos to you. And. Your organization for being a part of that change, and I’m sure many other wins to follow. So thanks Mauricio for being on the program, and thanks for all the work that you and hero and are doing. And everybody should go in there.

Sign up to be a hero yourself. Support heroes and kind of engage in community so that we’re connected and we can do this together. There is power in the collective. So check out Mauricio podcast, climate humans, and check out his TEDx talk, which was an excellent one. So again, thanks Mauricio for all you’re doing.

Oh, thanks Matt for having me and showcasing you know the stories, positive stories of everyone that is putting some of their work and energy on pushing the solutions forward.

So thank you so much to you as well.

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