A Climate Change with Matt Matern Climate Podcast

In the last 70 years, the island has lost 98% of its land mass. I love the environment, I love people, and I just try, in my own very little way, to make things better.

Got a great guest on the program Olga Loginova, one of her most recent projects is about the Brazilian rainforest and the deforestation related to medicinal plants. It’s called sacred leaves.

I was able to connect with people who had been jailed together, both in the male cell and female cell in the same jail, those four people’s cells on them would be like two to four people without food, without water, without excess of too fresh air, you name it, and it was brutal.

You’re listening to A Climate Change. This is Matt Matern, your host. Got a great guest on the program, Olga Loginova. Olga has got a really interesting career as a documentarian. She’s done a lot of different work. One of her most recent projects is about the Brazilian rainforest and the deforestation related to medicinal plants. It’s called sacred leaves, I believe it’s in post production. And she’s also done documentaries on covid and all kinds of other things we’re going to talk to her about. She has masters from Columbia University in environmental reporting, science and health, as well as masters in broadcast Cinematic Arts from Central Michigan University. So welcome to the program, Olga.

Thank you for having me. Hi Matt. Very nice to meet you and pleasure to be on the podcast.

Thank you. So tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to the environmental space.

Good question. Well, as you can hear from my accent and my name, I’m Eastern Europe. Again, I’m an immigrant, or generation zero immigrant, and I am originally from Belarus, where I also started my career as a journalist and documentary filmmaker. I made too short to be documentaries before I moved to states for grad school, but someone told me recently that their first memory was that of Chernobyl. For me, it was not the first memory, but it was definitely an experience that has transformed the lives of every single person in my country and beyond.

And we, and I and everyone else were kind of living through this ongoing experiment on what happens if the environment is changed irrevocably. And so I think the interest for covering kind of the crossing or the marriage of the environment and the policy and healthcare has always been present in my life, and I’m pursuing it now because I love the environment, I love people, and I just try, in my own very little way, to make things better and make sense of what’s going on around us.

I was thinking about it this morning in terms of, what do you feel are the documentarians kind of highest duties or goals? Is it just telling the story? Is it persuading people? Is it just putting the facts out there? I mean, generally speaking, my sense of most documentaries is that they have a spin. I mean, they have a point of view. Usually they’re trying to make a point. So what are your thoughts on that?

Another excellent question, and I’ve been thinking about this question as well, because I’m both a documentary filmmaker, but also I’m a journalist and I’m an environmental journalist, and I do environmental investigations. And documentaries are so many of different kinds, but in a way, it’s not a precision tool unless, of course, it’s 60 minutes when it’s like a purely journalistic but it’s documentaries are subjective, and which you said, there’s always a spin.

It’s a subjective perception of a world or situation through the eyes of an artist. Again, I’m not talking specifically about journalistic or investigative. So that’s the difference for me. Again, I do both things, and my recent project was investigated, but investigated. Look what maternity that’s a very different animal. But I am, in a way, trying to explain very complex, complicated phenomena by reaching for people’s hearts and also their eyes on their empathy. So I’m trying to speak to their arts to spur them to make a difference through their emotions.

When you talked about Chernobyl, I guess it was kind of like a documentary slash docudrama on Chernobyl that I thought was really well done. I don’t know from somebody who has more lived experience as to that, what your thoughts are on that particular production, but I thought it was powerful and made people think, and also gave those of us who didn’t have that kind of lived experience a sense. It’s a visceral, you know, like, Hey, this is what it would have been like to have been in this just horrendous situation.

The series is based on two books, and one of the books is written by Svitlana Alexievich, who is a phenomenal Belarusian writer and Nobel Prize winner. And she is, her writing is unique in a way. It kind of she’s also work as a journalist. So she documents, she kind of collects all histories, and then puts them in this amazing, rich words. I thought the series was excellent. I wish they credited the Lexie image before it as well, but they didn’t.

Which is it, oh, you know, kind of on a different level. The producer of Hamilton credited the author of The Great Hamilton biography, Ron Chernow, for inspiring the whole thing. And those of us who read that biography were also inspired by it. And so tell us, Olga, about the leaving the island your most recent production, and how with the genesis of it and where it took you the journey.

Thank you. Yeah, this journey has lasted four years. This has been a long, long road, and we released the three part series in March. We were very lucky to have fantastic partners. It aired live on WW and all public radio for New Orleans, and then sea change podcast also supported us, and the podcast was produced by odesian and type investigations that was phenomenal upon the support of type investigations and I began reporting on this story in 2021 as a Columbia Journalism investigations fellow, my team worked On a series of on investigative print stories about the, well, the lack of federal funding, or like we were trying to trace federal funding in regards to the communities, American communities, that needed climate relocation.

And at that time, the elder general resettlement, which was funded as the first commonly, you know, sponsored federally funded climate change, community level resettlement in the US, it was all over the news, and which like we were thinking, like, Why do a story about it? Like everyone is talking about it. It’s such huge success. But then I started, like, reading a little bit deeper, and I realized that the media coverage differs greatly from what the actually islanders or community members were saying and the island, while people still lived on it, or was mostly indigenous, most of the people belonged to one tribe.

Now it’s called the Jean Charles trop the nation, but they were members of another tribe, denied culmination there, and in their eyes what was going on. They compared it to the new Trail of Tears. It was very interesting, and we decided to go deeper.

So during that year, I talked to everyone I could, like I interviewed just under 100 people. I read 1000s of documents and public records, and we printed the story. We published this story two weeks before the first people who were supposed to move to the resettlement site, the new Isle, were moving. And I’m like, what? And we’re going to think now, what about but how are we going to know what happened? So I couldn’t let it go, because I think it’s also a slightly obsessive nature of an investigative journalist is kind of notorious.

We’re notorious for that. So I couldn’t let it go, and I kept talking to people. I kept reading, I kept researching documents, and I talked to my then, like my former editor on the journalism investigations, and she kind of blessed me to do pursue continuing reporting and in a different format. So I pitched a podcast and I found partners, and that began a new loop of two more years of reporting on rising and traveling and talking to people. That’s how the series was born.

Well, tell us a little bit more about that, where this community is and where it sits vis a vis major cities, and why is it so important

So well, Isle de Jean Charles is a small barrier island at the tip of carbons parish on the Gulf of the basically on the Louisiana’s Gulf Coast. And in the last 70 years, the island has lost 98% of its land mass, which is an enormous amount, when you think about it, it has lost everything. And 200 years ago, it was huge and lush, and there were like hundreds of people. And I talked to the tribal elders, and they described this very lively, very close knit community that people were just driving there, and then little by little, one hurricane at a time, one dredged canal at a time. Yeah, it just the land slipped away, and people start moving out.

And who are the indigenous people? Of course, the sense of land and the sense of community are very, very strong, so that wasn’t beginning of their attempts to reunite and with a very heavy. Very hard. The tribe decided. The Jean Charles triple nation decided to settle. And so they’ve been trying to do that. They have been trying to do it for over two decades. Before this opportunity for this particular federal grant through national disaster resilience competition came about in 2015 and in 2016 all the state of Louisiana received the grant, almost continuing dollar grant, to resell the island residents. And you asked me how far it is from major cities, it’s about, I’d say, 90 minutes from New Orleans. It’s to the south.

Yeah, I lived in New Orleans for about five years, and went to school there, started law school there, and so have a great fondness for the area. And kind of my interest in environmental law kind of came out while in law school reading a Wall Street Journal articles about the oil industry in Louisiana, dredging these canals and allowing the infiltration of waters into these areas, and the degradation of these islands, and the loss of land mass, which I think was ridiculous, amounts like 40 square miles a year, or something crazy.

And, you know, it’s kind of fascinating, the cultural loss too, because a lot of people don’t know that the indigenous folks had quite a bit of interaction with the French and other populations and contributed to the culture, and I think like sassafras and spices and the New Orleans cuisine is related to Native American culture and some of the language and streets like chopulis in New Orleans are named after indigenous you know things and so, you know, it’s a tremendous loss of culture to have a tribe decimated that was once flourishing, besides the environmental loss, which is gargantuan as well.

Yeah, I cannot but agree with you. Well, it’s complicated. Also, the tribes living on the island were not federally recognized. Both tribes are state recognized, which made the whole interaction between the State and the Tribes more difficult. And they were, in the end, people moved in 2022 in August, 2022 families from the island began to move, and I think the major kind of push was over in the winter, and now there are over 37 I mean, say households from Bill de Jean, Charles on the new Isle, but yeah, it’s a big question, what’s going to happen to the proverbial community? And I think I don’t know if we can answer it in the next years. It’s very hard, I would say it’s very sad.

But also, I was talking to an anthropologist, Anthony Oliver Smith, and he said that, like kind of it was the positive, optimistic note. We basically need to see the community sometimes they do reconstitute themselves, we just don’t know. So we can just say, Oh, it’s a complete failure, or it’s a success. At this point, it’s too early to tell, and of course, there’s very little patience in the media, but also in the society for like this, slow burns of projects.

Yeah, maybe in 100 to 200 years, we’ll be able to give it a better assessment as to whether it worked.

Well, I anthropology, like anthropologists say two generations need to pass to see if communities survive with a supplement. And very huge.

That is unfortunate. So where does that take you next? What are some of the other projects that you’re working on?

That’s a great question with a very loaded answer. So on the meta level, I’m trying to figure out how to find funding for season two of the podcast, which is not an easy task in today’s climate I continue reporting on environmental issues and environmental justice as a journalist, but also I’m working on another short documentary right now that’s about the effect of climate change on the waves.

It’s both the science documentary, but also a social science document where I’m trying to figure out what happens to the joy of surfing in one particular community in New York, what might happen if surfing goes away because waves change, because of climate change, and of course, I also want to know it happens to coastline. That’s a kind of It’s a passion project, and I’m a beginner surfer, and I love surfing, so that was my own personal question that I’m now trying to answer through my medium.

And as you mentioned before, I am post production on my documentary that I now filmed a few years ago, but slow moving. It’s sacred weaves about the deforestation of medicinal trees a percent. And that’s a very dear project to me, and of course, it’s very relevant now, deforestation still continuing, and traditional cultures, similar trees.

Well, I just had a guest on the program from Project Drawdown, Dr John Foley, and talking about deforestation and it being one of the top. Problems that the world is facing and and it’s gotten better under Lulu and Brazil, but it still hasn’t stopped. I was just down in Brazil in February, and such a beautiful country, and it is ginormous. You look at the map and you think, oh, it’s big, but you actually get there and you look, oh, it’s only an inch away. Well, that’s 1500 miles crazy. How big that country is. So which part of Brazil were you studying?

Mostly I was in para and Amazonas. So like, I was based in Delhi, and also I was in Manaus. But also I traveled across so focusing on different communities in para.

So tell us a little bit about the sacred leaves, and what are these medicinal plants that can heal us some of a you know, I’m an acai bowl fancier. I don’t know if that’s falls into the sacred category or just California, like hipster food. I’m not sure.

It’s definitely a treat for your soul. I actually had a cymbal yesterday, so sacred leaves like I started as a grad student. That was supposed to be kind of my thesis project. And maybe it’s just one of my personal convoluted waves and do things that my family is originally from Siberia, and my grandmother is from the family of herbalists. So generations of women in my family were like, going to the tiger, collecting birds in arts, in similar models, and shooting themselves, but also members of their own immediate community. They were like in camera. Now it’s a city, but it was a village when she was growing up. And I always had this curiosity because, like, I’m a city girl.

I was born in the capital of a different country, and I had very limited knowledge about the medicinal properties of trees in my backyard, which had none, but I had this opportunity to explore it and study a little bit of ethnobotany in grad school. And of course, Brazil was one of the key regions where the effects of deforestation of specific and medicinal trees was most pronounced. And I can talk about it for a long time, like I interviewed, of course, researchers, just to know what it is about, it would not be possible without the kind of buying of the local communities, which I was very lucky to have. I made friends in a phenomenal woman, Gloria Gaya, who is a midwife by training, but also she’s an activist and she’s a forest specialist.

She went back to school for forestry and made a commitment to protect the price of the land, and she kind of opened doors for me to linear with me. She said he should and I filmed also in Marda. I spent a couple of days with this fantastic Fisher women, which is, in itself, is a unique phenomenon, because it’s mostly male dominated activity. But like these, women were fishermen. What they were providing for their families this way, and but then they weren’t growing old.

And as they said, one day they’re all just gathered under a mango tree, and so like, what are we gonna do? And they pulled out, like old recipes from their grandmothers and their mothers, and somehow they managed to scramble resources. And they opened up a tiny Center, which is a very well run, and they gather there daily. They nominate each other like every day, a different woman is a leader of the production day, and they produce the tonics and remedies and shampoos and whatnot, and they share in this salad. And I think it is wonderful.

My Western mindset says, oh, I want to buy that so I can turn it into the next Aveda and make a billion dollars off that’ll be selling on Amazon. And how ironic is that sell it on Amazon, the rainforest stuff, you know, you can’t help.

Yeah, you can talk to them on their coordinates, you know, they’ll they probably need the money, but definitely need the money.

Well, one of the earlier thoughts was kind of about shamanism. And, you know, you’re talking about your grandmother, and there’s, I read a book about this, and that there’s shamanistic traditions all over the world, like every culture had them. And it kind of makes sense that there would be a need for somebody who had knowledge about medicine and how to take natural stuff, because they didn’t have pharmaceutical companies selling them things. So they had to, kind of experiment with mother nature to come up with remedies. And some of these remedies are very effective. Yeah.

Well, you also asked me before, like, what the trees are medicinal? Because they’re medicinal. In Brazil, there are, like 12 key species that have been also deforested, and among them a Copaiba and the euroba, Epe, amapa and other it’s, I think they’ll stop there. And Epe is a unique tree. The research in the Western and like you know, Western medicine is catching up, right? The people in the Amazon region have been using this trees and tree components forever. As long as they live there.

But now, like there’s so much research. And also, when I was there, there were masters students were kind of looking for evidence of potency of the herbs sold at local herbal markets. But also, of course, the global pharmaceutical complex is digging the Amazon region for next cure for AIDS and cancer, and so the ape, it has shown evidence for being therapeutic with certain types of cancers. And ape is a very popular tree here in the United States, because it’s used in construction and like, when you think about it, like how it travels and what the trees that might save, like that have so much more to give than just being pretty open someone’s deck of someone’s yard on the roof. Yeah, it’s an interesting topic for conversation.

Well, I think that they’re not only like for curing cancer or something, they’re for keeping us well so that it’s not quite as sexy as curing cancers, just like day to day use can prevent it from ever happening. And I think that’s not the western medicine mindset, which is only worry about it when it’s metastasized and it’s gotten out of control, and then give you a drug.

Yeah, it’s also like trees keep us cool, right? Like a rainforest is a major carbon sink, so it kind of ferguized temperature of our planet, and look like rainforest gone, but we’ll just steam very quickly.

So what did you see in terms of hopeful signs or other signs that weren’t so hopeful when you were studying the rainforest down there in Brazil?

So when I was there and I was filming, I did my research here in New York, like I talked to researchers here, but there, I just went filming and talking to people and doing that part of, kind of my diving deep into the or to an extent that I was allowed into the communities, traditional communities. As I must say, I filmed at the Center for indigenous medicine in Manaus. Like otherwise, I mostly focused in traditional communities, and I also was there when Bolsonaro was president, and that was a very different time than what we have now.

In the first, I think in first year Bolsonaro is first firm, the first station skyrocketed. So it was a really dark, dark time. And also then, of course, covid happened. And what was hopeful is women who are hopeful. I was very inspired by women who are the protectors of the forest. There is a saying in Brazil and Portuguese that without women, of course, before, and I saw how true that was, because again, my main co creator all like he said, and there are so many terms in the past, specifically Paul, the main person in the film of antagonist that it’s changing.

So again, she made a pledge that to protect the forest, and she basically dedicated for life to doing so and being very effective at it. And there are, like, Hundreds 1000s of women like that. So that was very hopeful. So I would say, as long as there are women in Brazil, the forest will survive. That’s my being slightly naive, but my faith in that.

I had a woman who lives in Brazil on the show a few months ago, and she knew no English a few years back, and she decided, hey, I want to become a protector of the environment in Brazil, and so she learned English, and she’s like, become an advocate around Brazil, but also in other areas around the world. And so I think that supports your thesis that, or the old saying that women protect the forest in Brazil, and if without the women, the forest will fall. So what about in the United States? We have hope for our forest here.

Well, the United States also has rain forest, but most of the northern forests regenerate and regenerate robustly. They’re not bound every year. So I think we’re in a different situation in the south, where if the rainforest is hot chopped, it won’t go back. That’s huge difference. But I also know that climate change is a major hero of trees. We are losing species, tree species, and we’re losing them at a very, very long rate, and that we’re losing insects and our well being well, it all fits together.

And the biodiversity and that you take away one element from the forest, and other things go out of balance. So we need all the things there. And people think, Oh, well, that one species of beetle or whatever, so what will survive? But those are all interconnected, and one piece falls out of place, and 1000s of other things depend upon that chain.

Yeah, I would say, if you want to learn more about what’s going on with the trees and how they would stand the on spot climate change here in the US, I would recommend the boutique to the trees by Marguerite Holloway. It’s a new book. Um, I’m reading it now, so maybe, yeah, so it’s excellent.

So tell everybody how they can find your work and where to go search for it.

Well, I highly recommend, Oh, absolutely. Also, I’m inviting everyone to listen to my narrative podcast leaving the end. It’s easy to say this on all platforms where you get your podcasts, but first it’s on Spotify, it’s on Apple podcasts and all the other mediums. You also can read more about it on audio issues web page and on tech investigations page.

It’s very doable, only three episodes, so it’s like a long car ride, or maybe when you do your laundry, it’s plenty, and you’ll know much more about what’s going on with this need to move people, and how we also think about our neighbors and what makes a community, but also how heartbreaking it is to abandon your home. And unfortunately, we’ll hear more stories like this in the coming decades. And as for my documentary work, well, I think the easiest way to get a flavor what I’m doing is on my website, and it’s www, Olga volginova.com Just keep an eye out for beings will come soon.

Well, that sounds great. I was curious you did a piece or about the political repression in Belarus. Tell us about that one.

Yes, so I am a multimedia journalist. So I do both video, audio and print, which I’m not sure why I done it to myself, but also sometimes, like this story, I think lends to genre and in 2020 I’m not sure people now, but Belarus, which is a small, really small, Eastern European country that has been ruled by the same person for over 30 years now. I think from 1994 I already lost count of how many years Alexander Lukas has been in power. But like in 2020 we had another, yet another presidential election, and we had a pretty robust opposition, and we had a opposition leader that many people stood behind.

And yeah, there are too many details, so people were at the alternative vote count and whatnot. But despite all the support opposition, our sitting ruler, Clay picture, again, people protested in like one within hours, 33 towns in the country, one tower to procause, and they were brutally depressed. And so the premise of this story is though 72 hours after the election or election results, and in those hours, dozens of 1000s people were arrested, and then when the doors of the jails were open, people find out, and human rights did, and respond out that over 1000 people were tortured. That for like, the numbers fluctuate, and there is no way to correct statistics, but 1000s were tortured.

And my colleague and I, like I was here, it was not possible for me to go back, and it was a shocking situation, and I felt that as a double student, I needed to do something about it, and again, that’s the only thing I can do to tell a story. So I was able to connect with people who had been jailed together, both in the male cell and female cell in the same jail. And just to paint the picture, those four people’s cells on there would be like two to four people without food, without water, without accessible to fresh air, you name it.

And it was people, so we kind of threw them by talking to every single person who talked to us, and we were able to recreate this horrendous reality of the first 72 hours after the election. And that was the story, and also my rising partner and reporting partner paves He’s a phenomenal journalist. She is a specialist in human rights journalism policy, so she focused. She just dug in and took and tried to answer the question why universal jurisdiction is so slow, and actually took less in prosecuting sitting dictators.

So that was the piece, a very tragic story, because it seemed pretty evident that Lukashenko had lost the election at the ballot box, but just stole it afterwards with just kind of a ruthless power play. And you kind of see that in the next door neighbor, his buddy Putin, same thing like the ballot box, is kind of meaningless, because he’s going to control regardless of what the votes are.

I’d say it’s a questionary tale for all countries that are like playing with the idea that a strong man is good or like, the right way to do it. I mean, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Yeah, we need our checks and balances, because we cannot trust any one person. It just it goes against history and humanity’s impulses, which are unfortunately less than ideal. I agree. So what are your. Thoughts as to other areas that you can focus your camera and focus your lens on to make a difference in these challenging times.

I hope to be able to continue reporting in communities that are on the front lines, and I’m not using it as a military term, but like they are there on the edges, like where the climate change is most pronounced, and I want to tell their stories and see what’s left me. I want to continue doing my documentaries. And again, I’m interested, like, I love people and I love nature, and so I’m lucky, and if I’m allowed to tell those stories, I’d like let you do that on the force. I would like to finish sacred leaves or to get the funding. So I’m doing very slowly on my own.

Well, maybe people can send funds to you. Where would they send funds to fund sacred leaves?

Oh, my God, that’s an excellent question. Well, contact me on via my website. I’ll tell you the ways to fund my projects. I’m also like, right now this documentary about surfing and climate change that also needs funding. It’s like, I think now is a very weird times for independent Bill makers, so every cent counts.

Well, maybe some of our surfer audience will get behind that, and I’ve done a little bit of surfing. The last time I surfed was in Costa Rica, and the guy who was helping me got me up on the board, like, eight or 10 times. And I was like, Okay, this is amazing. It’s a great feeling to balance on a wave.

I think, like, if everyone served, people would be much more chill, like you just give it all away to the ocean. And it’s like, you kind of become part of it, part of everything. And I think you treat things and people and everything around you, knowing how small you are and that you’re just in the hands of this enormous power, right?

Yeah, a lot of my surfer friends will talk about being kind of oneness out there, kind of a meditative state. And the Taoist teacher that I was listening to on the Insight Timer, he was talking about the wave as part of the ocean, and essentially the oneness that we experience. We’re both the wave and we’re part of the ocean. So to experience that as a surfer, you kind of integrate it into your body versus just a head based learning.

I agree. I can attest to that.

So well. It was fascinating having you on the show, Olga, great work that you’re doing. Really appreciate the work and keep in touch. Maybe we can collaborate in some way, shape or form. I’ve always been kind of fascinated about the idea of doing a documentary, but haven’t kind of taken the jump into I’ve interviewed a number of documentarians. I’m always fascinated by the work that they do, and I feel like those stories are so powerful and inspiring. So kudos to you for doing that work, and you kind of gave us a little sense of it’s not as easy as it looks. That 90 minute film or that two hour film took four years to make.

Oh, my God, nothing is easy, nothing. It’s a long journey. Tests your patients and your nervous system, but also work. Yeah, it tests you, but I think it’s worth it. And Matt, if you want to make a documentary, let’s make a documentary. And of course, like it was a great pleasure to be in the podcast, thank you for the wonderful, thoughtful conversation.

Well, kudos to you. And look forward to seeing all your new work and continue to do things that help the environment and spread the word. I think that it’s such a huge part of this is to educate people as to what these problems are, and because I think it’s so easy to hide our heads in the sand and be on social media and Tiktok and just miss the narrative and miss what’s happening and kind of just not wanting to see it, because it’s sometimes a tough reality to see, so it takes some work to dig in and be an informed citizen.

Yeah, well, I think that’s also our Gigi was not to hide our head in the sand, but actually be servant and mindful and read the fine print and actually read big degrees and documents and executive orders and see how it affects people around us and how it affects us on the long run.

Yeah, I’ve often thought that, quite frankly, being a citizen in the modern world is even more difficult than it was, say, 250 years ago, when the founders of the country, I mean, the amount of knowledge that is required to kind of be on top of these issues is just insane, to some extent beyond human capacity for legislators as well as citizens to really comprehend the extent of the complexity of the world that we live in.

Though, that doesn’t mean we get to just say, Yeah, forget about it, but it does mean we need to be more mindful and work probably harder, and also like, don’t take ourselves for granted. We are complex beings with really big brains. We should use them. I think that that’s my commenting. Yeah. It works well, if you use it directly, right?

People can make a difference. You know, you’re making a difference, and just one person and collaborating with other people, and it spreads the word, and and other people can do the same thing. We all have the capacity to do great things, and to deny that is kind of to deny the great gifts that we’ve been given absolutely well said, Okay, well, with that, we’re going to wrap it up, but great having you on the program.

Olga great was speaking to you.

Yeah. Thank you so much.

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