Welcome to A Climate Change show where we talk with changemakers and thought leaders who are taking action to stop the existential threat of climate change. I’m your host Matt Matern. Today we have two exceptional guests on the program Walter Lamb and Bruce Robertson, both of whom have dedicated significant efforts to preserving the Ballona Wetlands.

For those who aren’t familiar, the Ballona Wetlands is one of the largest wetlands in Los Angeles County and a natural habitat for over 600 species of plants and animals. Walter and Bruce have been instrumental in protecting this vital ecosystem, ensuring that remains a haven for wildlife and a green space for our community. We’ll dive into the ongoing challenges and victories in preserving the Ballona Wetlands and discuss what this means for our community and beyond. Without further ado, welcome to the program, Walter Lam and Bruce Robertson.

I’ve got two great guests on the program today, Walter Lamb and Bruce Robertson, who both done a lot of work on a Ballona Wetlands, which is a place kind of near and dear to all of our hearts who live here on the west side of Los Angeles. It’s a wetlands that its largest wetlands, in kind of Los Angeles County, and probably one of the largest ones in California. Both Bruce and Walter have done a lot of work to preserve this wetlands for all of us living in this area.

And I kind of wanted to tee this up as tomorrow we’re going to be or later, actually, this evening, President Biden and former President Trump are going to be having a debate. And I think, looking at environmental issues over the next five months is an important focus of this podcast and trying to talk about these issues and say, Hey, what are the consequences for the nation as we go forward? And what are those choices that we’re going to be making at the voting booth and, and how those votes will affect our environment, here locally, nationally, internationally.

So we’ll be tying those themes in as we talk to Walter and Bruce, about the Ballona Wetlands, and how that affects the community here in Los Angeles, but also how it affects kind of the wider world and and how these environmental policies are both national and statewide. And there are a lot of factors at play in preserving wetlands like this. There’s a lot of moving parts.

So welcome to the program, Walter and Bruce. So why don’t we start off, Walter with you? You work with the Ballona Wetlands Land Trust. Tell us a little bit about your work with that organization?

Yeah, so we were founded in 1984. It was the purpose of trying to preserve more land. And I know that the film that Bruce made talks about, you know, this this era, in the late 90s, when one of the groups had settled with the developer for less land than a lot of us not could be saved. And so a lot of groups sprung up to try to save more land than we did, the time, it was probably going to be around 300 acres, less than 300 acres. And we were able to preserve twice that amount, close to 600 acres.

And since that time, we have advocated for policies that preserve land protected from encroachment, we have a lot of because it’s so urban, adjacent, a lot of encroachment threats that we have to deal with quite often, for example, just recently, the Lincoln Boulevard, there’s a proposal to widen that pretty busy through fair. And that would encroach upon the wetlands. So we’re trying to work with Caltrans and the Department of LA is to see if we can, again, minimize or eliminate that encroachment. But we focus on education, we could do a lot of outreach to the community, trying to, you know, go to public meetings and advocate for the wetlands, field trips, that sort of thing.

But we do also do litigation. We’ve actually done a lot of litigation. We have some litigation ongoing right now. And especially as it relates to the vital wetlands restoration project, which is a project that’s been in the planning process for about 20 years, but hasn’t really progressed very far. And we’re trying to figure out a way to help the wetlands reach their, you know, ecological potential in the interim, because this project has taken so long and we think it’s poorly designed, and it’s sort of the Netivot authority in history in 30 seconds.

So who is who is managing the restoration project now? Is that the Army Corps of Engineers or is it partly the state or is it a hodgepodge of multiple groups?

That’s a great question it, the court was involved for a while, but they dropped out. Because they requested from the California Department, fish and wildlife, that’s the lead agency under Sequa. And they’re the land managers. So they’re really the ones driving the show. And the Corps of Engineers, there was a discrepancy in the flood control, which, you know, seems like a pretty important thing. And they actually got it off, it was off by about 50%.

And so the course of what you needed to fix that and you needed to give us all this additional engineering information, that was going to be cost prohibitive. So what the artificial wildlife did instead was that they haven’t given them that information. And they’ve been working on a much smaller project that they’re going to try to commence with. But the US Army Corps of Engineers hasn’t been involved in since September of 2019. So almost five years.

So where do you see this going? I mean, should people be taking action to talk to the State Department’s here in California Department of Fish and Wildlife to put pressure on them to move this project along, because, as some of us know, there’s an invasive weed problem, and that only a small portion of this 577 Acres is really kind of fully restored to its pristine, natural state, and a lot of it is invaded by weeds.

Right. And that’s a really good point. And so, I guess, a couple of notes, you’re gonna have different people with different perspectives on which plants, you know, in that spectrum of, you know, native, non native invasive, you know, which ones are the most harmful? We certainly agree, we want to see much more native vegetation there. And we think that’s possible. Right now through community stewardship. So we definitely think that the community should be speaking up and saying, you know, since this other project is so far out into the future, let’s get some community stewardship going on right now, that’s beneficial in many ways. It helps, again, the habitat there.

But it also helps get the community more involved. It shifts us away from arguing, which has been going on at bio wetlands for about 40 years now. And gets different groups together out there, you know, rolling up their sleeves, fresh air, and working to restore the habitat. So in terms of the amount of land that’s functioning, that’s a really tricky question, because you know, it’s Los Angeles, so there’s not probably a single square inch out there. That’s what it was, you know, 200 300 years ago. But right off Jefferson, for anyone who writes, you know, who commutes on Jefferson Boulevard, through Playa Del Rey, you’re gonna see a seasonal wetland and non tidal wetland right at the edge of Jefferson Boulevard, and is full right now with ducks and a lot of nesting docks, wading birds, you name it, we’ve had dozens and dozens of species there. So I think the extent of the degradation is sometimes exaggerated by the groups that are pushing for the project.

But no question. It’s, it’s, there needs to be some work done. We think that can be done right now with community stewardship. And we think that the project does design is not a good idea. So we have been opposing that project. And really, the issue is, it’s no longer viable. We don’t think economically, we don’t think it’s actually ever going to get done anyways. So we really need to focus on the community stewardship.

So what is the project as designed? What what does that entail?

Well, it the whole project involves knocking down the existing flood control levees, and that would require a permit from the Army Corps of Engineers, and then recontouring the creek into more of a winding shape, and then moving the levees back to the perimeter of the Ecological Reserves, and allowing more of the water to come in. So up to that point, I would certainly, you know, think that sounds like a good idea.

The problem is when you actually look at the designs, they have to put that soil somewhere, they have to build the new levees, and they have to maintain the flood control, right, because we’re in a pretty urbanized environment. And that’s where things went off the rails a little bit. They first of all, I guess, they said they got the flood control numbers wrong.

And so that’s going to take them quite a bit of effort to get those corrected. But also one of the areas that they want to build the new levee is right on top of existing endangered species habitat, the building Savannah Sparrow, which is gonna get a new name soon.

And so that was a problem for us right off the bat. It’s really rare for a a restoration project actually be destroying the existing breeding habitat of an endangered bird. Friends of biota, wetlands, so I know you spoke with a couple of years ago, they had the same concern that they voiced in their comments. They said this seems extreme. It seems ecologically responsible. They’ve since soften that opposition but it is a big deal actually to get rid of so much.

Really, all of the existing breeding habitat. Now, they would argue that they would hope that there’s going to be some new habitat did they’ll just prove the restoration plan. But that’s a big gift. These are birds that have a lot of site fidelity, which means they don’t really just always go around and explore, looking for new habitat to breed.

And so that’s a big concern for us with the project. But again, because they they have really not made any effort in the last five years to get permits from the Army Corps, we don’t think they’re really even pursuing that particular project anymore, which is part of the part of the issue.

But I’d say one theme that I hear coming through from your comments is a those of us who our neighbors that are affected by this project directly, you have to become more engaged in the process to make sure that the good decisions are being pushed, and move forward. Because otherwise, you know, if we just kind of outsource our thinking to other powers, that be they may not make the best choices.

So kudos to you and your group for kind of keeping eyes on it. It’s, it’s a bit shocking that they could get the flood control numbers wrong by whatever 50% off, you think that they would have had, you know, good engineers doing this, but they make mistakes from time to time. So you have to really continue to, to kick the tires. Bruce, like to bring you into the conversation.

Bruce, you did a documentary on the ball on a wetlands back years ago and won some awards for its tell us how you became involved. And tell us a bit about the documentary and, and maybe where people can find it on YouTube. And it’s, it’s beautifully shot. And you can see a lot of the species that you know, within that area. And it’s it’s pretty phenomenal here in this urban area to have so many, you know, different species living right here.

You know, thank you. I’ve been a resident of the west side of Los Angeles, Venice and marvista for 35-40 years and long time ago. You know, we used to really enjoy driving by this open area and seeing that there was some undeveloped area in Los Angeles boy has been a nature lover in the early 80s, or late 90s. There, I mean, late 80s or early 90s, there was a council woman here named Ruth galanter.

And then there was the Friends of the Ballona Wetlands who were had up to that point been opposing the project. And they made a deal a compromise with at the time, it was a developer called McGuire Thomas, who was initiating the original client if the plan and it was touted as a great compromise between environmentalists and the powers that be in business. And I didn’t even pay a lot of attention to it.

But then in mid 90s, I met some people that were involved with the with the local Chico wetlands project. And I started looking at the what exactly was involved in the plans for the Playa Vista project. And as I started looking into it, I realized that there was very little real habitat being saved. And they had plans for massive residential projects, west of Lincoln Boulevard. And I think I remember correctly over 12,000 units or something like that.

So when I saw that, I thought, wow, that’s, you know, that doesn’t really sound like a very good compromise. When I started talking with other people about it and was around that time, that final wetlands Land Trust was also starting to get formed and get involved. And so several of us started meeting together and realize that we had, we thought there was some work to do, and we decided that that compromise was not acceptable as it wasn’t in the best interest of the wildlife there.

And so we started forming coalition. I also started in a nonprofit called Ballona Valley preservation league. And eventually we were able to get over 80 environmental groups to come on to this coalition, including Sierra Club and Surfrider Foundation CalPIRG and some other significant players in the LA environmental movement. And we started gaining traction.

We filed a lawsuit challenging the environmental impact statement that the project had, and eventually got a favorable ruling from a court that describe their decision for on the the approval process, they called it arbitrariness and capricious and arbitrary. And so we were gaining momentum. During that time I started going out. I mean, I’m a private investigator, I also am a videographer. And I started going out in the wetlands and just filming wildlife there just in for the purpose of documenting the wildlife that was there because one thing that became apparent to me is that when people drive by it just look like barren land and really didn’t, you know, it doesn’t have them majesty, wetlands, you know, have PR problems.

They don’t have the majesty of the redwoods, or any or waterfalls or anything like that. And so people, you know, may not recognize them as the important habitat that they are and, and how valuable they are. So, I was I was filming, I was getting great wildlife video of of species there that people weren’t even aware, were there, I started showing it to people, and they said, Oh, you’ve got to make a film about this. This is amazing. We got to get this out.

And so I embarked on making a documentary film, I was fortunate enough to have the advice of a documentary film professor at USC by the name of Amanda Pope, who helped me a lot in informing the documentary, and actually came up with a 14 minute short film about saving the wetlands and the wildlife that was there and the threat of the development and was well received, I won several awards and wildlife, film festivals and things like that.

And, and that was a great boon to our efforts. And they continued on into the later later 90s and early 2000s. And then eventually, it was a stalemate for a while we had this court ruling, but the developer was appealing and things weren’t really moving in either direction, and then we were able to get there was a ballot on them. That was a California ballot that provided some significant funds for wildlife wildlife acquisition in the early 90s. And eventually, we were able to get money under that legislation approved for purchase of the wetlands, which eventually resulted in the deal with a developer to get the 600 or so acres into a trust to land a public land trust.

And at the same time, there was $100 million that was provided to the developer to purchase that land. It was for some people that was a little controversial, because we were trying to stop the entire development. And at the same time, we, you know, ended up with a compromise that gave them money that, you know, some people thought was so important.

Well, we love you, or help to them. But we decided that, you know, that was a compromise we had to make. And I think it was a very good compromise. And as Walter said, there are now around 600 acres of wildlife habitat that are slated for while they’re already in the public trust and can never be taken out of it.

Yeah, it’s a fantastic result and a great story. And one of the things that I picked up on that you talked about was the wetlands have a PR problem. And I thought that was kind of brilliant. And particularly, I had just been at this Hollywood Climate Summit, and they were talking about how the oil and gas people have been just, you know, incredibly successful at having a PR to support what they’re doing.

So they have sold effectively their thing. And one of the things that we’re talking about is that this kind of PR genius smarts for Mobil Oil, one of the things that he would do was support things like Masterpiece Theater, but one of the areas they supported most on public television was wildlife programs and wildlife documentaries, to kind of give this soft feel of hey, the oil companies we you know, we like environmental things and we’re not so bad and you know, we can protect certain areas that are really nice, but you know, other your areas really aren’t that big of a deal.

So it was kind of this brilliant PR strategy. And we could all in the environmental movement, take some pages out of there, very slick PR strategy to promote the environment because the environment hasn’t really had as an effective advocate, as these, you know, trillion dollar oil companies have, you know, spun their needs very effective way. And real estate developers and tobacco industry all those guys have tremendous PR machines that spin messages that don’t aren’t anywhere near and accurate.

But they, they’re persuasive in their ability to get people to think, Oh, darn oil companies, they’re not so bad. So anyway, kudos to both of you for helping protect this amazing piece of wetlands in an area that’s highly populated.

So pivoting back to you, Walter, in terms of where we’re at, in and in saying it’s a multi decade, endeavor to continue to fight for our native you know, our wetlands and areas in nature, it isn’t something that just goes away, because there’s constantly a need to kind of curate these areas to make sure they stay wild. So tell us, what are the next steps that you’re looking at in your organization is going to be doing to help protect this area?

Well, our biggest focus right now is getting some sort of interim stewardship and access in place, there was actually a state commission document in 2005, called the interim access and stewardship management plan that unfortunately, kind of got put on the shelf. And, you know, one of the reasons is because this large scale restoration proposal has, that we’ve been hearing for 20 years, that’s two or three years away, it’s always two or three years away.

And so people are saying, sometimes, well, let’s just wait right, and if you’re going to remodel your kitchen, you’re probably not going to paint your kitchen before you remodel, right. So it comes down to a timing issue. And what we’re trying to do now is get the community to speak up and you know, really trying to get the policy change. So that really all across the 600 acres, you know, being really sensitive to wildlife really sensitive to the habitats sensitive to cultural resources as well, that’s important, you know, tribal consultation, all of those things, get everyone together, and come up with a plan where we’re taking care of this as a community right now.

So trying to make sure that we have some for wetland plants that have room to grow, and that they’re not being choked out by these invasive weeds that you’ve talked about, amazingly enough, area A, which is the area just north of the creek. And that is one of the areas that would have been developed by Playa Vista under the friends settlement had we not kept pushing and gotten the money as Bruce talked about for acquisition of that land, and even a little bit of land in Area B was gonna get developed.

There’s a good graphic of that in Bruce’s film. But there has not been any community stewardship to speak up and every day for as long as I can remember. And so we’re trying to do that now. So we get kids from schools, church groups, boys, boy and girl scout Cub Scouts, you name it, local communities, California Conservation Corps to come out and just hand poll, because that’s the most effective that’s more effective than herbicide it’s safer than herbicides more effective than weed whacking. And to pull these weeds out to plant new plants or to spread native seed.

We already have a lot of alkali Heath and alkali weed and other native plants growing in area A and even more so in Area B. And then the baseball fields in Area C, we’d really like to those be accessible for more than just the baseball players. There’s a lot of kids in LA who are really interested in nature, a lot of them come from disadvantaged communities, a lot of them don’t have the same access from a career path perspective, as a lot of other people do to go out and get a PhD and get a lucrative career in the environment.

And there are actually pretty lucrative careers in the environment. If you can go get a master’s degree or PhD. There’s a lot of people charging between $300-$500 an hour to do surveys and monitoring. Every kid Los Angeles should feel like that’s a career path that’s open to them. You talk to these people that will have the PhDs and they’ll almost always tell you, they started camping as a kid, right, their family would go to a particular place, they’re always hiking.

So for kids who are living in, you know, some of these more urban areas, we have to make sure we’re getting them out not just for one field trip, you know, in their elementary school, but we have we just started a internship with a high school at Camp Dorsey high school and we have a few kids now who are coming out on a regular basis. They’re gonna learn all the plants and the animals, we’re gonna teach them how to do nature walks, we’re gonna teach them how to, you know, do all the things that they would do to sort of continue on in a career on the environment.

So that’s our big thrust right now, in terms of the large scale restoration project, we are very confident that that has imploded under its own weight, we don’t think there’s any, any chance that that’s actually going to happen. And so what we’re trying to do now is not have it be a zombie project for the next 10 years that continues to consume resources and attention, but rather, again, that we sort of shift back, that’s not to say that they couldn’t redesign that project to be feasible, you know, obviously, fix the flood control be one thing, you know, design it so that it’s not actually burying existing reading habitat for endangered species.

And we would love to help them do that. But again, I think that’s going to take a consensus, it’s going to take community sort of coming together around a table and problem solving. And right now, because this has been going on, really, for 40 plus years, it is gotten to be pretty polarized. And I think we need to depolarize this and get everyone back working in a more of a problem solving collaborative mode.

Well, where where are the politicians on this? Because I, I’ve had a couple of politicians that I think represent this district Senator Ben Allen, and, and Councilwoman Tracy parks. And where are they, you know, in this process?

Well, interestingly enough, we’re not aware of a single politician who has come out with a statement in favor of the project, or come out with a statement, you know, in opposition to the project. And I think, you know, partly that’s just good politics is wait and see. But I do think we’re at the time now, where we need folks not necessarily to come out with the large scale project, because again, we feel like that kind of died on its own, but to focus more on what is going to happen.

And I think we’re, we’re hoping to get them on board, we did get one great letter from Assemblywoman Tina McKenna, saying, hey, it’s time for us to make this accessible to local kids to come out here and learn about nature, I’m happy to share that letter with you. We really want all the other elected officials to get on board with that, because there’s so much promise at the binding of wetlands, we don’t have to wait another 20 years for them to work through all their permitting and engineering issues.

And if you come down to the wetlands now in the area, a right across from Westeros restaurant, every Wednesday through Saturday, from eight to one, sorry, 8am to 1pm is open to the public. And we’re down there a lot. We’re down there, monitoring plants, taking pictures, documenting things, you know, we were doing some weeding for a while, and we’re trying to get back to where we are able to do that again. So I would say to everyone, come on down, visit the wetland see for yourself what a great place that is to be.

Even when you can see a lot of invasive weeds, you’re gonna see a lot of native plants as well, and lots of native wildlife. And it’s also just great. to Bruce’s point earlier, open space is so rare in Los Angeles. And that’s, this is an expansive open space. So we really need to just take advantage of what we have. And like I said, get the community together. We’re not all going to agree on everything. Right? That’s it’s messy, right? democracy is messy.

But if we can get enough people together and build enough of a consensus to move forward with something on the community level, we think that’s going to transform this what’s already a gem and an even more valuable place, ecologically. And also from a community perspective, and tribal engagement is critical to that as well.

Well, you know, thank you for keep pushing that forward. Walter and Bruce, tell us a little bit about, you know, what your thoughts are 30 years on from joining this process and, and what what you see is kind of things that people who want to get involved can do, and and how somebody like yourself, takes the bull by the horns and just goes out and starts documenting the problem and says, Hey, let’s, let’s just make a difference here.

Yeah, well, you know, it was, I think, I would like to encourage anybody that is a lover of nature or whatever, injustice or problem you see in society, if you nowadays with iPhone, you can or any type of cell phone you can make a movie with with that we, we didn’t have that when I was making my film, but, you know, I think individual activism is still in play and that people can go out if they get interested in a project and and start making a difference and it’s rewarding to to be involved in that. I have I have not been involved in this restoration process.

I I think that you know, it sounds like It was just they were just biting off a lot more than was practical in terms of what they wanted to do to restructure the wetlands. And, you know, they’ve been in the state that they are for, you know, probably 5080 years. And I don’t think a radical remake is just that practical at this point.

So, I really liked Walter’s point of view to just start getting people out on the land, and start using this beautiful resource that we have and, and be able to make that available to the community as well. I also want to make one one other little pitch, and that is that I am looking for a web designer or web developer to post my video. And it’s, the content is on a DVD. And if somebody out there wants to help out in that way, then we’d very much appreciate some help in that direction. If they could get in touch with with you, Matt, and let us let us know.

Yeah, that’d be great. Yeah, all these little pieces of activism help spread the word and, and your film was a great piece of activism. And it’s very, you know, it’s propitious timing, and that I was just at this Hollywood Film Festival, or Hollywood, you know, and they’re talking about getting these messages out to people. And you did exactly kind of what they’re talking about doing now. 30 years later, which is getting out there, filming things, getting the word out, and, and making a difference.

And we can all do that, like you, like you said, document what’s happening, share it, post it, get engaged, talk to your representatives. And and it’s similar to what Walter was saying, let’s take some baby steps here and make some progress. We may not hit perfection, but we can make some progress, pull some weeds, get out there show kids what it’s like to, to see these amazing wetlands in person.

See some of the amazing wildlife that we have here in LA, which kind of is hidden in plain sight from a lot of our views, maybe a lot of us don’t see the kinds of things that you see at the bone or wetlands, just walking down your average street. So I encourage everybody to get out there, get involved, check out the Friends of Bono wetlands as well, they’ve certainly been an organization that’s been involved in this for a long time have done a lot of good work.

So it’s, it’s taken kind of a village of lots of different activists to make this tremendous difference. And kind of given you the final word Bruce’s, as far as you know, how does it feel 30 years on from the beginning of this journey to drive by this place, or walk into this place and see that it has been preserved because of efforts that you you’ve taken on with others?

Well, you’re exactly right, Matt, it is very, very satisfying to drive through there and see that at least west of Lincoln Boulevard, there’s still beautiful open space there. It’s very satisfying, I’m glad we still have that great resource in LA in Los Angeles. And I do think that people should take take away from the struggle that we waged, you know, you can make a difference.

And it just takes persistence. And as you said, I encourage people to get out to the wetlands and see what’s there because it’s there’s beautiful nature there. And you just got to kind of get down on the ground to ground level to see it.

I always argue that one of the best things people can do to help the ecological reserve is to get there for a visit. I know a lot of people hear about it via mechanisms like this, which are important, but it’s great to actually be there to see the wildlife to see the native plants, also the invasive plants, right to get understanding of you know, the situation so that they can make more informed decisions about you know, what they might, what kind of policies they might support.

And as I mentioned, the area A is north of the creek and it’s basically in Marina Del Rey right across from whiskey reds restaurant is open from Wednesdays through Saturdays 8am to 1pm That’s a great place to go on your own. You can always ask us, you know one of our folks to join you, I can be reached at [email protected] and we get Sophia Gabrielle at the same address, shoot us an email and we can meet you down there but we’re just go on your own and explore for yourself. And then east of that is a place called area see that’s not open to the public.

So anyone who goes drives by uncovered Boulevard sees the baseball fields interested in Those baseball fields are in the ecological reserve. But we’d love to get those fields also open for nature education and appreciation right now that area is not open. And then south of the creek, of course, is we call area B. And nature Nexus Institute does First Monday and second Sunday. So tomorrow, June or July 6, it will be an event and I’ll be volunteering for them and eating a burger muck.

And then east of that is the freshwater marsh that you mentioned earlier that’s at the corner of Lincoln Boulevard and Jefferson Boulevard that’s actually not inside the collages or just to be clear organization doesn’t have a whole lot to do with that other than we look at the studies in terms of, you know, hydrological connection from the freshwater marsh to the rest of the lottery serve. But, you know, definitely get there. That’s the first thing.

And then the other bit of advice I guess I would have is always try to stay focused on the wildlife in the plants. This is something that’s been going on for 40 years, and there is a lot of acrimony, you’re gonna get a lot of other people who feel like they’ve chosen sides, and there’s a lot of debate, the last thing we want is for people to think that the vinyl weapons is just something people fight over. Right, that’s the last thing that it is, it’s a really amazing place.

So if you get down there, and then just start to, you know, focus positively on, you know, what kind of change can we make right now, to improve some of the things we’ve talked about trash, you know, invasive vegetation, better habitat for the wildlife, so that that’s the biggest the biggest takeaway I would leave with your listeners.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the program today, Bruce, and Walter. And appreciate your activism and kind of giving the arc of history project here as to what it takes to to make a difference. And some of these small steps end up doing something phenomenal and having a group of people getting together and waging a fight against big developers and politicians who aren’t necessarily always looking out for our best interest or the best interests of the wildlife. I mean, that’s something that you point out in your documentary.

Here’s here, the voice of the voiceless is all the wildlife there. And as you said, there’s 500 species of plants and animals in this fairly small area that help you help protect and that’s a that’s a pretty phenomenal results. And kudos to you for helping do all that great work.

Thank you, man. And kudos to you for what you’re doing with with this podcast and, and your commitment to the environment. It’s, it’s something that I very much respect and thank you for.

Thank you. Thanks for having having me. And looking forward to giving you some good news soon.

Have a great day, everybody. And that was Bruce Robertson and Walter Lamb. If you want to learn more about the Ballona Wetlands Land Trust, visit Ballona.org. And you can watch Bruce’s documentary on YouTube by searching the Culver City Historical Society and Ballona Wetlands.

To learn more about our work at A Climate Change, and how you can help us reach our goal planning 30,000 trees in the Amazon this year, visit AClimateChange.com Don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend. See you next time.