It doesn’t affect us all equally. It affects those who’ve done the least to contribute to the problem, especially the poorest and most marginalized people on the planet the most.

You’re listening to A Climate Change. This is Matt Matern, your host. I’ve got Dr. Katharine Hayhoe on the program. Dr. Hayhoe’s background is quite fascinating. Her parents were Christian missionaries. She grew up in Colombia, part of her youth. Their father was a science educator in Toronto, and her father inspired her that religion and science do not have to conflict with each other. She met her husband, Andrew Farley, who also was a professor and now is leading a different organization, the Grace Message, as well as an author. And they both are religious Christian evangelicals.

And Dr. Hayhoe has authored 120 peer-reviewed publications. Wow. She’s also been on the National Academy of Science and done reports there, was on the Third National Climate Assessment in 2014. She also served as an expert reviewer on the IPCC reports, which is the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a UN panel. TIME magazine listed her as one of the 100 most influential people in 2014. Foreign Policy magazine listed her as one of the 100 leading global thinkers. Dr. Hayhoe has also been very critical of climate change deniers, and she and her husband have engaged in outreach.

She’s an author of a book, Saving Us: A Climate Scientist’s Case for Hope. She delivers lectures based on scriptures that focus on the benefits of collective action to mitigate the efforts on climate change. And one of the quotes that I really liked was, our faith demands that we act on this issue. So welcome, Dr. Hayhoe, to the program. Thanks for being on our show.

Thank you for having me.

So I’d love to have you tell everyone your story. I know I left a lot of blanks in the story as to what led you to be an atmospheric scientist.

Sure. So first of all, what is an atmospheric scientist? Well, that’s someone who studies the part of the climate system that’s the atmosphere. Other climate systems might, other climate scientists, I should say, might be studying the ocean. They might be studying what we call the cryosphere, which is the ice sheets and Arctic sea ice. They might be studying the biosphere, which is all the living things on the planet. But I’m the one who studies the atmosphere. And what led me to do this was because, I learned that climate change is no longer just a future issue. It’s a present issue affecting us today. And even though it affects all of us, it doesn’t affect us all equally.

It affects those who’ve done the least to contribute to the problem, especially the poorest and most marginalized people on the planet the most. So I was finishing my undergraduate degree in physics and astronomy, and I was planning to be an astrophysicist, when I took this extra class on climate change because it looked interesting and it fit in my schedule. And that’s where I learned these things, and that’s what completely changed my perspective. I realized that we had to fix this as soon as possible.

I had some of the skills that you need to do this work. Specifically, climate modeling is the area that I focus on, modeling of the atmosphere. And I know that every bit of warming matters. So everything that each one of us can do, no matter who we are, no matter what our area of expertise, everything that each one of us can do to make a difference really does count.

That is an important point. I think we all have something to do. I’ve certainly heard people argue that it really is the major organizations and the government that have to really take the lead on this as individual action. Isn’t going to dig us out of the hole that we’re in. We need to have really concerted action by the government. Do you think that’s true?

Well, often people ask me, do we need individual action or do we need systemic change? And my answer to that question is yes, because what is the system made up of other than people? And how does the system change other than when individuals within that system call for and advocate for and catalyze that change? So our individual choices and even more importantly, our individual voices are key. To catalyzing this change. But the change must happen at the system level because even if you and I and everybody listening who want to do the right things, even if we changed all our light bulbs, made sure that we were powered 100% by renewable energy, used public transportation or biked or plug-in car, ate plants, didn’t fly anymore, did everything that we could to reduce our personal carbon footprint.

That wouldn’t even take care of more than a fraction of the problem. We need to change the system so that for everybody, the easiest choice and the most affordable choice is also the best choice. Not just for them and their family and their health and their pocketbook, but also for all of us and for our future. And so that’s why we need the system to change. But the way it changes is when individuals lean in, advocate, call for that change, sometimes by example and sometimes by using their voices.

So tell me, you’re plugged into the Christian community. Do you see that the percentage of Christians accepting that climate change is real is increasing or decreasing?

Well, first of all, I want to say that the phenomena of Christians rejecting what science is telling us about the fact that the planet is warming, humans are responsible, the impacts are serious, and we need to act now. It is primarily a U.S. phenomenon. In fact, outside the U.S., I have a colleague who tracks this and has studied it. When we find climate denial in Christian circles outside the U.S., almost every single time, those ideas can be tracked back to a U.S. source. So what makes American Christians different than any other Christian? I mean, if you’re Catholic, you have the same Pope. If you’re any type of Christian, you have the same Bible, right?

What makes American Christians different? One word, Politics. It turns out that when you control for Politics, the religious differences primarily disappear. In the United States, there’s a long history of conservative Politics being associated with conservative theology. I’m talking small “c,” conservative, not big. And so for many people today, their statement of faith, unfortunately, in the United States is written, first of all, by their political ideology, and only a very distant second by the Bible or the Pope or what any religious leader says. And if the two come into conflict, it will go with their political ideology over the Bible.

And in fact, a recent study showed that 40% of people in the United States who call themselves evangelicals, so if you said, are you an evangelical Christian, they would say yes. 40% of them don’t even go to church. So where are they getting their information from? Not church, not the Bible, not religious leaders. They’re getting it from Politics. Is there anything in the Bible that suggests that we shouldn’t care for others and care for the planet?

No., in Genesis, the first book in the Bible, it says God gave humans responsibility over every living thing. And then at the very end of the Bible, in the book of Revelation, it says God will destroy those who destroy the earth. And then all through the Bible, it talks about loving and caring for the most seemingly insignificant components of nature and caring for our sisters and our brothers. Again, the poorest and most vulnerable who are most impacted by climate change. So I’m really convinced, and I see this happening, that when people understand how who they are is already the perfect person to care, we see people immediately heading to the front of the line to demand climate action.

And this is what we see even in the church in the United States. We see that when people realize that what they believe is consistent with climate action, and this is especially happening among the younger generation who are not as politically tied to one side or the other of the aisle as older people are, they are actually advocating for climate action because they’re Christians, not despite it.

Well, that’s good news that you certainly see younger people following the science versus following the Politics and making decisions about climate change. Doctor, I wanted to ask you, what are the ways that you explain to conservative Christians that climate change is real and they should take this seriously?

Well, we have to start with what we just talked about before the break, which is understanding why they think it isn’t. And despite the fact that we often hear religiously sounding objections, like God is in control, so why does this matter? Or the world’s going to end anyway, so why do we care? When you just scratch the surface, you can see that those aren’t religiously at all. In fact, they directly contradict what the Bible says about how humans have responsibility over every living thing on this earth, or how we don’t know what the future holds, so today we’re called to love and care for other people.

That’s literally things that the Bible says. But these are just excuses, religiously and science-y sounding excuses for what? To prevent action. Because for political reasons, people have been told that it’s too expensive or it’s going to destroy the economy, it’s going to take away my personal liberties to take action on climate change. But the reality is… If we don’t fix climate, it will fix us. It is in all of our best interests, Christians or not, to transition to a clean energy economy where we don’t have millions of people dying every year from the air pollution from burning fossil fuels. She transitioned to an economy where we don’t waste and throw out half the food we produce while people go hungry. To a world where people have a safe place to live that is not threatened by flood or storm or hurricane or disaster.

For a better future with clean air and clean water and abundant food and safe places to live, we all want that. But we can’t get there without climate action. So we have to understand where people are coming from. That’s number one. And then number two, and this is actually what I cover in my TED Talk if people are interested. I have a TED Talk about how do we have these conversations about climate change. Number two is we have to start with where they’re at. We have to start with something they care about. So for example, I love to ski. But if somebody else doesn’t care about skiing, I’m not going to be talking their ear off about how there’s no snow at Christmas and how the ski seasons are getting shorter and how winter athletes are concerned about climate change because they don’t care about that.

We need to start with what they care about. And with fellow Christians, it’s always easier to have a conversation with somebody who shares something with you. With Christians, I often talk about, hey, did you know that the Bible says this? Did you know that these Christian organizations are doing that? Did you know that because I’m a Christian, that’s why I’m a climate scientist and that’s why I care so much? Start with where people are at. Connect the values they already have to why this problem matters. But then don’t stop there. Always bring in positive, constructive solutions and examples of things people are doing. And so people always ask me, well, like what?

So last year, I started a newsletter. It’s a free weekly newsletter. It’s called Talking Climate. And you can Google it and find out how to subscribe from my website or just Google Talking Climate in Katharine Hayhoe. And every week, I have a piece of good news, a piece of not so good news because we need to understand what’s happening and why it affects us, and then something that you can do to make a difference to start the conversations.

Well, that sounds great. I do encourage my listeners every week to go out there and do something to engage, volunteer, take action, change eating habits, change our consumption habits so that we’re using less stuff and that all benefits the climate ultimately. So tell us a little bit about these extreme weather events and whether they are moving the needle in terms of convincing more people that climate change is real serious and we need to do something immediately.

So how is climate change affecting extreme weather events? It’s not often creating them. I mean, climate change doesn’t typically light the wildfire or create the hurricane. But what it’s doing is it’s taking these extreme events and it’s supersizing them. It’s making them bigger, stronger, and more dangerous.

So in a warmer world, when a hurricane spins up, as it always does during hurricane season, there’s a lot more energy in the ocean to power that hurricane into a category three, four, or even five than there was 50 or 100 years ago. When that fire sparks, it’s like dropping a match into dry, dead wood because of climate change, drying out the vegetation and the soil. And so that one fire becomes a conflagration that can take over an entire town. Climate change is loading the weather dice against us. And so today, there’s hardly a person on the planet who could say, I haven’t seen a way that climate change is affecting me or the people or the places I love with my own eyes. So what that’s doing is it’s dismantling one of the key barriers to climate action, which is psychological distance.

For a long time, many people said, sure, climate change is real, but it only matters to people living in the future or people who live over there or polar bears up in the Arctic, not me. Today, we understand it’s me. The heat waves, the floods, the storms, the wildfires, it’s affecting me, the people, the places I love. But that’s not enough to catalyze change at the scale we need because it’s only half the coin. Half of the coin is understanding the risk. What’s the other half of the coin? Knowing what we can do about it. And unless we help people see what they can do to make a difference, unless we give examples of, here’s what other schools have done, why doesn’t our school do this? Here’s what other towns have done, why don’t we do this too in our town?

Here’s what other families or households or Girl Scout troops have done, why don’t we do that too? Unless we take action knowing what to do, we won’t see change at the scale we need. So today, more than ever, it’s essential to talk not only about how climate change is affecting us and why it matters, the first slide of the coin, but at the same time and in the same breath, what we could do working together to make a difference. Because if we’re convinced there’s nothing that we can do, then we will be doomed.

So what are the things that you talk about that kind of get people who are new to this movement engaged at step one as to what can they do? What would you tell somebody who’s new in the game?

That is a great question. And it’s a question I get so frequently that it is actually my pinned tweet on Twitter, or I guess we have to call it X these days. So often people say, all right, I change my light bulbs. I eat more plants. I have a plug-in car. I have solar panels or I get my electricity from renewable sources. What more can I do? Today, the most important thing that we can do, and Bill McKibben says this so well, I’m just going to quote him. Bill says, the most important thing an individual can do is not be such an individual. What does he mean by that? He means that when we focus not just on our personal carbon footprint, but on our climate shadow, the way that we interact with people around us, that is how we can be most powerful at affecting change.

So according to social scientists, I was on a project with 30 social scientists two years ago, helping to put together a list of the six most effective things you can do to make a difference to support the movie Don’t Look Up. That’s that climate metaphor movie where there’s the asteroid coming to Earth and then people weren’t doing anything about it because they didn’t know what to do. So the fear was there, the first half of the coin was there, but the personal efficacy, the what can I do to make a difference was completely missing. And not to spoil the ending, but it’s a two-year-old movie, so at this point you probably know the asteroid hit the Earth because nobody knew what to do. That’s why it’s so important to talk about what we can do. So here are the most important things we can do, most effective things we can do, according to social science. Number one is to just have that conversation. I’m not talking about having the conversation with Uncle Jim who says climate change isn’t real.

I’m talking about having the conversation about what we can do with the people you live with, the people you work with, the people you study with, the people you worship with, the people that you play ultimate Frisbee with, the people you walk your dogs with. Have that conversation about what we could do together. Number two, join a climate action group. I think this is so important that on my website, which is just my name, katharinehayhoe.com, I’ve put together a list of organizations. So if you’re a parent, you can join these organizations.

If you’re a person of faith, if you’re an athlete, if you’re a young person, if you’re an older person, I have all these different lists of organizations that people can join based on their interests to help elevate their voice. That’s number two. Number three, make your money count. What bank do you use? What credit cards do you use? Where is your retirement funds invested? And if you don’t have control over that, what are you doing to try to divest from fossil fuels? In my book, Saving Us, I have a story about a guy who worked at a hospital and his hospital, ironically, was investing their pension fund in fossil fuels, even though the air pollution from burning fossil fuels kills millions of people a year. So he was circulating a petition among all the people who contributed to that pension plan to change where the funds went.

Number four, spark ideas at work and school. How does a business or a school change unless somebody there says, hey, have we ever thought about doing this? Hold politicians accountable. You can see a common theme here. It all involves using your voice. And then lastly, reduce your personal carbon footprint, but do not stop there. Talk about it and share what you’re doing to amplify it. I really love the fact I didn’t have to go to the gas station during COVID because I had a plug-in car. I’m not guilting my neighbor for not having one. I’m sharing the joy and the appreciation that I had for a change that I made personally. These are the most effective things that we can do, and they’re so simple. You can start today.

Well, I will start today and I’ve got some other questions for you. I wanted to tell everybody who you would put up on Mount Rushmore regarding the climate change movement in particular.

That’s a great question. First of all, I would say I would pick a location that was accessible to everyone, not just in the United States, because this is a global issue and we have global heroes. So some of the most inspiring people that I know are people that you wouldn’t even know their names because they’ve just affected change where they are. So, for example, one of my former students, she was working with me and she told her grandmother that she was working for a climate scientist. And this is in West Texas where people are very politically conservative. And her grandmother said, why are you working for somebody who’s promoting that United Nations hoax?

And she said, no, grandma, she’s a Christian and she believes the same things we do, you should check out some of her videos. And so her grandma checked out my Global Weirding videos because that’s the power of engaging with people who love us and loving people in return. It’s because sometimes we can, we’re willing to consider other people’s views that we might not ordinarily if they were somebody else. Her grandma completely changed her mind on climate and is now buttonholing all of the people at her little Baptist church in her little town in Texas, telling them that climate change really is real. And here’s how it’s affecting Texas. And here’s what we can do about it as Christians. So I would love to see millions of people’s faces up there with little stories underneath of all the things they’re doing.

And in my newsletter, once a month, I highlight somebody who’s an inspiration who you’ve never heard of before. And this past month, it’s a soccer player from northern Pakistan who is not only an advocate for women in sports, but she’s also an advocate for climate action because of how it’s affecting her people in northern Pakistan. Before that, my climate inspiration was a young 10-year-old boy who has a podcast to talk about climate change and what kids can do about it. So I personally would love to see millions of faces on Mount Rushmore. But if I had to pick just one or two that people might have heard of, I would probably lead with a woman called Christiana Figueres.

Now, she might be a familiar name to some of you and she might not to others, but she led the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change process that eventually came to the Paris Agreement in 2015. The Paris Agreement is the first global treaty with every country in the world signing on to reduce their carbon emissions to limit warming to at least 2 degrees Celsius, which is 3.5 degrees Fahrenheit, and preferably 1.5 degrees Celsius, which is about 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit, if we can. And Christiana shepherded all the countries in the world to that historic agreement. And I just think the patience, the optimism, the indefatigableness that it takes.

To reach something like that is phenomenal. And she is still a source of encouragement and inspiration today. So she’s one climate hero. But there’s so many other climate heroes who are making a difference at every scale, who are creating organizations that empower people like Citizens’ Climate Lobby or the Sunrise Movement. All of the children and young people who are standing up and using their voice so courageously and so boldly to advocate for a better future for all of us. And then the leaders in business, in finance, in education. And health. In all the different sectors across the economy, there are leaders who are standing up saying, hey, people, we need a transition plan.

We’ve been living as if there’s no tomorrow. We’ve been living as if we’re on an infinitely flat planet. We can always go somewhere else to get more of what we need. We’re on a round planet. And we need a transition plan to a net zero future and a circular economy. And we’re going to lead the way. So as you can see, I think maybe we should convert like all the mountain ranges into Mount Rushmore. See, get all the faces, this is up there that we need because when we start looking for positive, inspirational stories, they truly are all around us.

Well, I appreciate your answer. It’s a great one. And I just had somebody on the program last week and Justin J. Pearson, who’s a state representative in Tennessee, and he was talking about how he liked to keep his heroes kind of touchable. And I think that’s a great way to talk about them. And I appreciate some of the people that you mentioned are very relatable, kind of average, everyday folks that we all can aspire to do that kind of work ourselves rather than somebody who might seem like, oh, geez, well, to be a hero, it takes so much. I can’t possibly get there. But we don’t have to lead the UN treaty to be a hero. We can do something more modestly, talk to our neighbors and friends and convince them about the need to act.

Well, that’s exactly it. And I came to this revelation that you just expressed so beautifully in a really interesting way. One of my colleagues, George Marshall, he founded the organization Climate Outreach, which is a phenomenal organization with all kinds of great resources on how to effectively talk about and engage people on climate change. But I follow him on Instagram, and he shares photos of how he bikes around to little towns in England on the weekend. He’s an avid biker, and he takes pictures of those little towns. And, he had a photo on his Instagram account a couple of years ago, and it was a memorial stone for a member of parliament.

Now, I’ve heard the name William Wilberforce, and most people have, as a primary motivating force in the anti-slavery movement in the UK at that time. But on this member of parliament’s tombstone, a memorial stone, it said that he had been an ardent advocate for the anti-slavery movement and for the abolishment of slavery in the United Kingdom for years and even decades. It explained how many times he had voted for the legislation, how he had advocated for the legislation, how it hadn’t happened, it hadn’t happened again, it didn’t happen again. And then it said, finally, just before he died, he voted for it again. And enough people voted for it that it passed and the realization of his life’s work was accomplished. And that made me realize society has changed before. Women got the vote. Slavery has mostly been abolished.

Civil rights have been enacted in the United States. Gay marriage has passed. How did that happen? We might know a few of the names. You might know the names Susan B. Anthony, Martin Luther Jones, Nelson Mandela. But how many thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands of people advocated with them, fought with them, used their voices to change where they were. And we don’t remember their names today, but we stand in the shadow. Of their voices and their deeds. And every single one of us, I’m convinced, can be one of those people for the next generation.

So tell us, what gives you hope going forward? What makes you feel positive and upbeat about the future?

Well, what gives you hope is the most common and frequent question I’m asked as a climate scientist. And it’s so common, in fact, that I wrote my book, Saving Us, specifically to answer that question. Let me give you the short version, though. First of all, when I say hope, I’m not talking about positive thinking. Because if we all just engaged in positive thinking, we’d be thinking positively until our civilization fell apart. It’s not about positive thinking.

My definition of hope. Begins with realizing it’s bad. And it’s going to get worse. And there is no guarantee that a better future awaits us. But I know that if we do everything we can to make a difference, and the science is very clear on this. We can alter the outcome. The science says every bit of warming matters. Every action matters. Every choice matters. What we do matters. That is what gives me hope. So when I look around, where do I find hope? I find hope in the thousands. Hundreds of thousands, even millions of people. Who are already making a difference. So often we picture climate action like this giant boulder sitting at the bottom of an impossibly steep cliff with only a few hands on it. Al Gore, Greta Thunberg, maybe a couple other people are trying to push it.

And it’s not budging an inch. And if I had my hand, it’s not going to make a difference. So why bother? But if we look around at all of the people, young and old, rich and poor, here or there, who are already making a difference, we realize that giant boulder of climate action is already at the top of the hill. It is already rolling down the hill in the right direction. It already has millions of hands on it. And if I add mine, and if I use my voice to encourage someone else to add theirs, it will go faster. And that is what gives me hope.

I like the metaphor. I was thinking that you might go to the saying, it’s not a big boulder that we need to push up. It’s a lot of millions of pebbles that all of us can pick up a pebble and walk it up the hill. It’s doable. So we don’t have to push the entire boulder. Let’s just grab a pebble. We’ll all-

I like that. That’s good.

You can take it. It’s all yours.

Well, tell us what are the things that are the most challenging that we do need to work on, maybe the hardest choices in terms of changing the internal combustion engine. I mean, is it going to make sense to shift everybody to electric cars? Or is there some alternative that we should be considering more mass transit or other methods of moving us?

Well, there’s no one silver bullet when it comes to climate solutions. But there’s a lot of silver box shot. So the answer to your question, do we need A, B, or C, is yes, we need all of it. And Project Drawdown is a fantastic resource that lists all of the different solutions we have for efficiency. We’re so wasteful with our energy and our food. For clean energy, for nature-based solutions, for climate resilience, for agricultural solutions, we need the whole spectrum of solutions. We need it all. And the good news is that means there’s a solution for every situation. But what’s holding us back, one of the biggest things that’s holding us back, is the enormous effective subsidies on fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are subsidized to the tune of $13 million U.S. per minute, massively distorting our economy and our markets.

And that is one of the biggest things holding back the tide, because believe me, the tide has turned already. But that is one of the biggest things holding back the speed at which we could and should be changing. And then I think it’s also important to figure out ways to, provide jobs for people. I’m not talking about enriching people who are already billionaires or trillionaires, but I am talking about a just transition. So, for example, people who live in coal mining areas in West Virginia or Kentucky or Ohio, the only available job to put food on the table with their skill set is, for example, say, in the coal mines. But coal mining is shutting down, not because of climate action, actually, yet in the U.S., but because natural gas is a lot cheaper and easier, as well as being more efficient and producing less carbon.

So, what are some ways that we can ensure that people are still able to put food on the table for their family, whether they live in Saudi Arabia or they live in West Virginia, while still, again, accelerating that transition to a new clean energy economy? Those are the questions we have to ask and answer. And there’s often, there’s a lot of great answers out there. Have you interviewed anybody yet who works on a just transition?

Yeah, we’ve talked to lots of different people about these issues. Anybody in particular that you think is a leading light on this area?

Well, there is definitely a lot of different organizations involved at the local scale and being Canadian. One of my favorite organizations is from Canada. It’s called Iron Plus Earth. And what they do is they offer free retraining for people in the oil and gas industry, especially in Alberta or out west, to learn how to install solar or wind. Because it turns out that part of Canada, as well as that part of the United States, where oil and gas comes from, also has a lot of sun and a lot of wind. And so free retraining programs offer people the ability to upgrade their skills and look for a job in a different sector, which if they had to go out and pay for that training and take time off work, they might not be able to do that.

Well, that’s very important. And I think that we obviously have transitions available for the economy at large. And it is certainly at the micro level is a bit more challenging, but it is happening that people are learning new trades. And we’ve always had that in our economy. There’s been people who are buggy with manufacturers and they all were put out of business essentially when cars came into being. So we’ve always had transitioning. So kind of holding on to jobs that are certain segments and saying, oh, we have to keep those jobs. And so that just isn’t. How a dynamic economy works over time.

Exactly.

So what are your thoughts as to, in terms of solar and wind, we’ve heard in Texas that they’re putting impediments to further solar and wind farms, even though Texas has benefited greatly by having lots of solar and wind is one of the leaders in that area.

Well, Texas, the state of Texas now has more solar and wind energy installed than any other state put together. And this summer, with most days over 100 degrees Fahrenheit, that’s what kept the power grid up was solar and wind. So there haven’t been restrictions put on yet, but there are attempts to do so. And we are also seeing attempts to move against climate action at the national scale in the U.S.. We’re seeing that in places like the province of Alberta in Canada.

We’re seeing it even in the EU where there’s a backlash against clean energy. Why is that? It’s because climate denial has never been about rejecting the science. People still use, like I said, stoves, refrigerators and airplanes. It’s the same physics that explains how we burn coal, gas and oil. We produce heat trapping gases and they’re building up in the atmosphere, wrapping an extra blanket around the planet, causing it to warm. Climate denial has always been about solution aversion. And the closer we get to substantial climate action here in the United States, the Inflation Reduction Act was the biggest piece of climate legislation, the country has ever seen.

The closer we get to catalytic climate action, the stronger, the more forceful, the more vociferous the solution aversion becomes. So in a way, seeing this strong pushback against action, which clearly benefits even the very people opposing it, seeing how clearly people are willing to cut off their nose despite their face, reveals that the real problem is not lack of information about the science. The real problem is there’s just some people, who want the status quo to remain the same forever.

And like you just said, that is not what happens with human society. The clean energy revolution is already underway. The question is just, can we get it going fast enough to avoid the worst and most serious of the climate impacts? That is the only question left today.

Well, Dr. Hayhoe, it’s been a pleasure having you on the program. Everybody should check out Dr. Katharine Hayhoe’s book, Saving Us: A Climate Scientist’s Case for Hope. Also check out katharinehayhoe.com as well as her TED Talks. She’s done amazing work and is an incredible communicator of these ideas. We’re so happy to have you on the show and look forward to working with you going forward because you definitely have your fingers on the pulse of what we should be doing and how we can help save the planet.

We can change the world if we do it today.